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So, as a leader, if you have the opportunity and you should look for talent people who have an insatiable appetite for learning, who have communication skills and want to put in the work and are humble, set clear goals and standards, give them an opportunity to make mistakes, coach them through that and delegate and go from there.
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Hey Uncommon Leaders, welcome back.
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This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast.
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I'm your host, john Gallagher, so I know you've heard the question or questions often asked are leaders made or are they born?
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Well, my guest today, damon Lembe, is gonna finally answer that question for us, so you just have to wait a little while longer, but he's going to make sure you know before we go and I think he's going to have a great answer to that question.
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Damon is a two-time bestselling author.
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He's the CEO of LearnIt, which is a software platform that teaches, ultimately has uplifted 2 million people in their leadership development since he brought the company out, and I'm excited to talk to him about that a little bit more.
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He also hosts the Learned Podcast and you'll get to hear a little bit about this, because I'll just probe it anyway.
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But he was a high school and college All-American baseball player and was drafted by the Atlanta Braves.
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Then I just learned he was actually close with one of my favorite players growing up, and that's Joe Montana when he was with Notre Dame and the San Francisco 49ers.
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So this should be a great conversation today.
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Damon, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast.
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How are you doing?
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I'm doing great, john, and it's an honor to be here, so thank you for having me, absolutely.
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Well, before we jump into those stories and answer those questions, I'm going to give you the same first question I always give my first-time guests, and that's to tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today, as a person or as a leader.
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So the story that comes to mind it was around 1982, so I was 10, and my father was the CEO of Savings and Loan and called Continental Savings of America, and we did and we're big sports fans, as you kind of mentioned and he had what was called Kids Opening Day at Candlestick Park and what he did was it was the first Saturday after opening day and he bought 25,000 tickets for the game and he bust in all of as many kids as possible from inner cities and low-income neighborhoods and we rented out half of the parking lot at Candlestick Park.
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I was able to be the ball boy that day, the bat, that bat boy, and it was a tremendous experience because my dad and this is part of what I'll always remember was he was a big fan for the underdog and he always wanted to give people an opportunity and a chance who maybe wouldn't have gotten that chance.
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And so, if we fast forward, 30 years later, unfortunately my dad was passing away from cancer and I was there with him and his college roommate, this great guy, black guy, named Bert Strain, and we said Bert worked with my dad and he said we're going to bring this back, walt, you know you're going to get out of this hospital and we're going to have baseball for the stars and you know, we knew he wasn't going to get out of the hospital.
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But what we did, john for for seven years straight was in my dad's honor is we got 300 to 400 kids from oakland, california, san leon, san leandro, all these areas and their parents, and we brought them out there and we had I brought all my ex-baseball buddies and we have speakers like ricky h, coco Crisp, john Sally, even Joe Morgan, and we just talked a lot about how you know, through sports and other avenues, you can get out of the situation you're in.
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And there you know there is more to life than drugs and crime and it's just something.
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When I heard this question and prepared for it, it's something that I always believed in is giving underdogs the opportunity and finding other channels to find your way in life, and I think sports has been a huge one for me and it's really helped me model my perspective and approach to leadership.
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Love that and I use sports analogies all the time in terms of leadership development.
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You see, while it's blurred out a little bit, the uncommon book by Tony Dungy and the daily devotional that I use from Tony Dungy I could go through the list.
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He played to win the game with Herm Edwards and certainly Lou Holtz books that are sitting up there winning every day.
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I mean the different versions, the Notre Dame version and the South Carolina version, whatever that is, but the Notre Dame version has to be a better version.
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But then there's this book as well, that I just finished up the.
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Learn it All, leader.
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That's a story about sports and how it impacts leadership and, ultimately, how it's led you to build your company.
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Learn it.
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So tell me a little bit about this book first.
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Again, two-timetime bestselling author and Damon, I've made my way through it.
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Who did you write this book for and why did you write it now?
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So I originally set out to write a book.
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I was thinking about writing a book about my you know, my family and my experience in San Francisco, but as I got thinking about it, I wanted to.
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I had a unique opportunity.
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I played, I played sports.
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I played baseball for three Hall of Fame baseball coaches.
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I played sports, I played baseball for three Hall of Fame baseball coaches.
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So I wrote this book for other individuals who, let's say, they didn't go to nothing wrong with Harvard and all these you know MBA schools, but individuals like me who either went to a regular college or maybe didn't even go to college, to show them that through hard work and continuous learning that you can become a great leader and thrive.
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Number two I feel like I've had this unique opportunity to see behind the curtains of all these great organizations over the years great leaders and poor leaders, john and how they go about their business.
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So that's number two.
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And number three, of course, as I mentioned to you, I've got a seven-year-old and a three-year-old and I wanted to be able to share my legacy.
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But also my mom's still alive, but my dad's gone and I wanted them to be able to learn about the upbringing I had and the learnings from them, as well as my grandfather.
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So those are really the three reasons that I wrote the book.
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Love that and I've appreciated the stories that you have all through the book.
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Look, let's just jump right into it.
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In terms of what you have there, you broke the book really out into two sections.
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You mentioned that for leaders, leaders are beers and they are doers.
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So tell me a little bit about that and kind of how you came to that framework as you're going through the book and in your own leadership development.
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Yeah, so I broke it down into being and doing.
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You know, and being is really about the mindset, and so I call it, I refer to it as a learn-it-all mindset, similar, you know, obviously like a growth mindset, and that is always that, like you mentioned.
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You know, I believe great leaders understand that they don't have all the answers and that you have to be continuously growing.
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You know, the opposite of a learn-it-all is a know-it-all.
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You know somebody who comes to the game.
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They have it all figured out.
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You know their eyes glaze over when somebody asks them a question because it's my way or the highway.
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And I have found that, you know, some of the best leaders I've come across are ones who are always open and they're humble and they're looking for ways to always adapt and grow.
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So that's like the first half of the book talks about that, and then the second half is that you know, I heard this great quote from somebody that learning without doing is treason, and so the second half of the book are some practical insights and actionable takeaways for actually applying what we talked about, because I got a bunch of books behind me.
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You got a bunch of books behind you, but if all you do is read and you don't roll up your sleeves and actually apply any of the stuff that you learn, I think you're missing out on a great opportunity.
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Amen, brother, and I think that and I take it back to scripture as well, in terms of what we learn out of scripture and how we live our life, giving us the roadmap to live a great life as well.
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But many books you're exactly right, and if we can be intentional at those books look, I was in my own personal leadership development and still to this day I have to fight it.
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But I get this sense of when I see the cover of a book and I'm like that's the answer and as soon as I read the book, I'm going to have it and I'm going to know it, and you can see by our bookshelves that it wasn't one book that impacts us and takes us all the way through that.
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But this is a book, no doubt, that's got a lot of those stories.
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Chapter one, right off the bat in terms of being, you said, go all in.
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One of the things you talk about in there is the imposter syndrome, something we hear about a lot lately.
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Tell me a little bit about that and how you have experienced that yourself and help others to overcome it.
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So the imposter syndrome, you, they're either lying or they're sociopaths, you know.
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And so what I wanted to do is share my experience, and my experience really with uh imposter syndrome really for the first time was when I, you know, when I finished high school I was a high school American uh, drafted by Atlanta Braves, as you mentioned and I, uh, you know it was always one of the best players around and I played, you know, across the country and even in Korea.
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And but for the first time in my life, when I got to Pepperdine, I realized that everybody there was as good or better than me.
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And it was really for the first time in my life where I thought do I even belong here?
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Am I even good enough to be here?
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And I remember, like it was yesterday, and I tell this story in the book, but I was walking into the office of my coach, andy Lopez, and this was our first player coach.
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Sit down, kind of like a performance review in the fall practice.
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And I sat down and Lopez, before I even had a chance to speak, he leaned forward and he said, damon, when I recruited you to come to Pepperdine, it was because I believed that you would be a great third baseman and you could hit in the middle of our lineup.
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But he said you know what, son?
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And he sat back, crossed his arms and said you just don't have what it takes to play division one baseball.
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And he was just quiet, and so you can imagine how I felt I was.
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I was I felt like how do I get out of here?
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What's the quickest way to get home?
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You know I I'm floored by this.
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I knew I wasn't doing well, but I didn't know that.
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My coach thought I wasn't good enough to be there.
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But and before I had an opportunity to answer, he he sat forward again and he pointed at me and he said that's not what I believe about you, that's not what our coaches see in you.
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Our coaches believe, and I believe, that you have what it takes to be a great Division I baseball player and probably play professionally.
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But the situation here is, damon, it's not up to us.
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At some point you need to get out of your own head and you need to compete.
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We brought you here to compete and until you do so, you're gonna, you're gonna continue to struggle, struggle and, john, I'd like to say that I immediately left coach lopez's office and turned things around.
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Unfortunately I didn't.
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I got hurt.
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Um, my season came to an end.
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I bounced around a little bit, uh, went to a junior college and then I got an opportunity to go play.
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I got a full ride again to Arizona State and at Arizona State, a lot of people before I took the scholarship they said Damon, maybe you should just go to a small school, maybe you can just go someplace where you can get your degree and you can move on with your life.
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But I said to myself, hey, this is my last shot with baseball, so I'm going to face these fears straight on.
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And that's kind of what I did.
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And I came up with this three-step framework for overcoming imposter syndrome, which is really work hard.
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Number one I don't think that you can.
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There's no hacks to success.
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You have to work hard.
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Number two is deliberate practice.
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Right, so let's say that you're struggling to get.
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You know, you're going to give a keynote, or maybe you're managing for the first time and you're kind of wondering like, oh, am I even good enough to be in here?
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Well, find out the areas that you think you need the most work on and put in the deliberate practice.
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And then step three is when you step into the batter's box or you step up on stage is learn and let go right.
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You've worked hard, you put in the deliberate practice and now just go out there, forget about techniques and just give it your best shot.
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And really, john, what I found is that too often we're just so hard on ourselves, right, and we don't give ourselves enough credit for stepping out of our comfort zone and trying things that most people never even get to that point.
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So you should give yourself a pat on the back, whether or not, let's say, you crush it or you fall flat on your face, or maybe you did somewhere in between.
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It's all learning opportunities, and so with that I mean that's my recommendation.
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Advice for everyone is for how to overcome the imposter syndrome, and even a step before.
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All of that is, think about what you're so worried about and at the end of the day, I was worried about, you know, maybe not making a baseball team.
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Well, if that's something you could live with, then just then, just go for it.
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So that that's how I recommend you know.
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You know, conquering a head on, uh, imposter syndrome.
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I don't.
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I don't know why, but it used to.
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It's some for some reason.
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My used to be a horrendous golf game, which I don't play golf anymore was a lot like what you're talking about there.
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Work hard, deliberate practice.
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You can practice all you want, but if you step up in the box and you're trying to tell yourself all the steps that are going to practice, or step out onto the tee box and try to do that, you're guaranteed to do what you just said.
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You're going to slice it, you're going to miss swing and a miss, whatever.
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That is because you're overthinking it.
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But developing that ability to let go once you get there and trust that all that hard work and that deliberate practice is going to work for you is very important as well, and it's a step that many don't overcome.
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That's why they don't end up in the major leagues or on the professional golf links or whatever that is to go forward is that they hold themselves back, simply from a mindset standpoint.
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The other thing that came to mind was the Nick Saban quote that you know you don't practice until you get it right.
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You practice until you can't get it wrong.
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That's that deliberate nature of just saying it's going to be fluid.
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It's going to be motion and it's just going to happen, and I appreciate that, whether it's in the batter's box or it's on the stage where you're getting ready to do a presentation or, frankly, to your point about leadership, where you're getting ready to give feedback to somebody for the first time.
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You know it's very difficult to do, but if you practice at it, you model it and then you let go, it's usually some of the best things can happen.
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I appreciate you sharing that as you go forward Now, when you think about your personal development, in terms of both in your organization as well as your own personal growth.
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You mentioned that biographies are one of your favorite books to read.
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Do you have a favorite biography that you've been influenced by, that has made a difference and you want to share with?
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others.
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I love the question.
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I think one of my favorite biographies of all time I don't think I know is Losing my Virginity by Richard Branson, and it just at the beginning of my career, around 97 98 is when I first picked it up and I loved all the stories.
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I'm also a big fan of music but he shares a lot of his challenges going up against the big guys and some of the mistakes he made and the challenges and what's overcome, and so I love that.
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I love all his work.
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You know he's got some more recent versions of kind of like a biography or business book.
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So I love his work and I'm also a big World War II buff and I love a bunch of Winston Churchill biographies.
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So I've read I can't think of a specific one, but I've read several of them.
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Okay, no, I appreciate biographies as well.
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I usually listen to them versus reading them, but I do, like I.
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This is again a mindset for me.
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Is I like a book that I'm underlining and taking key points from Biographies is really staying focused on the way that leaders made decisions, the way that they overcame stress or tribulation because they all faced it and, frankly, as you said, even the imposter syndrome.
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Some of those great biographies detail what they had to overcome to get there too, and I think that can be a powerful story.
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Okay, we've got to come back to the first question, and that was are leaders born or are leaders made?
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Answer that question for me, damon.
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Neither.
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That's my answer.
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Oh, so you know they're always in the making.
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Sure, some people are born with the innate ability to have charisma or whatever, but that's not going to carry you throughout your career, especially in today's world which is crazy how fast, I think, human knowledge is doubling every 12 hours, right, and seven generations in a workforce you can't rest on your laurels.
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And as far as it comes to being made, there's just so many different things out there and so many different ways to do things that you have to be constantly learning and growing and adapting.
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So you're not born or made.
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You're constantly in the making.
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Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share something special with you.
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Many of the topics and discussions we have on this podcast are areas where I provide coaching and consulting services for individuals and organizations.
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If you've been inspired by our conversation and are seeking a catalyst for change in your own life or within your team, I invite you to visit coachjohngallaghercom forward slash free call to sign up for a free coaching call with me.
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It's an opportunity for us to connect, discuss your unique challenges and explore how coaching or consulting can benefit you and your team.
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Okay, let's get back to the show.
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All right, I'll take that as an answer.
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I appreciate that Always in the making and I think that goes along with your book Learn it All, leader that we never really get there, that we always need to be on a learning path.
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Your company, learn it, has trained, equipped, inspired more than 2 million people since its inception.
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Tell me how learn it does that.
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How do you inspire, encourage others?
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What would folks need to know about learning?
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so originally we started off as a lot.
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We're a live learning platform, but originally for the first 20, some odd years, we were mostly in person.
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You know, go on the client sites.
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We had locations in 10, 12 different areas across the country.
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And then, with COVID, with everybody else, we pivoted.
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We went mostly virtual and I'd say about 90% of our work is now virtual.
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We have some e-learning e-learning and, john, I'd say, companies turn to us when they're looking to equip new managers with skills and resources, especially mid-level managers who need the most help.
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If there's an organization where maybe they're struggling with communication and they want to build a better culture of communication or even just want to have a thriving learning organization, so they turn to us and we look at building out training programs that help align with the skills gaps that they have and we deliver it through either two hour virtual sessions and we supplement it with other learning opportunities.
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Now with whether it's AI tools that we have that we use, but that's typically what it is it's.
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We're mostly almost all B2B and we work with organizations of all sizes, especially individual contributors, through middle managers, to help on key skills, whether it be adaptability, innovation, leading teams, emotional intelligence, and on the flip side, we still do a lot of Microsoft Excel training.
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Love that and the simplicity and the need for Microsoft Excel training.
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You mentioned AI.
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Things continuously change in the world of technology and you provide a platform that's mostly virtual and has to be challenging from a business growth standpoint.
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How are you embracing, if you will, that AI technology and how it's impacting your business?
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I would say, for whether it's LearnIt or any of your listeners out there, we have to embrace AI.
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And you know, I like to say I mean you've probably heard it before you know is AI going to take your job?
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No, somebody who's a power user in AI will.
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What I've done is, you know, similar, like you talked about in chapter one of my book is I've just kind of gone all in, I rolled up my sleeves.
00:21:27.946 --> 00:21:57.224
I think, especially if you're a leader out there, if you want your team to embrace AI which I hope you do you got to model that behavior and so, even if it's just starting off and just using chat, gpt or perplexity or some of these tools, get yourself familiar with it and then invest in getting tools for other people in your organization, because if you don't adapt and grow with the technology, you're going to be left behind.
00:21:57.886 --> 00:22:00.635
And I look at it for the learning industry.
00:22:00.635 --> 00:22:06.198
I don't believe that AI is going to take over coaching or live learning.
00:22:06.198 --> 00:22:19.875
I think it's going to be a great supplement Because, you know, john, whether you're coaching clients or we're delivering workshops, you know a two-hour session, one and done, isn't going to create that stickiness and retention.
00:22:19.875 --> 00:22:28.249
You're going to need additional tools, whether it's an AI habit coach or follow-up information that pings you on different behaviors you're trying to change.
00:22:28.249 --> 00:22:30.511
So I think you have to go all in.
00:22:30.511 --> 00:22:33.237
Can't hide your head in the sand.
00:22:33.237 --> 00:22:47.374
Ai is here to stay and obviously there's going to be some social and ethical things you need to take into consideration, but I think it's absolutely critical from this day moving forward.
00:22:48.847 --> 00:22:51.114
I love that and, again, embracing it.
00:22:51.114 --> 00:22:54.007
It doesn't have to be the AI of artificial intelligence.
00:22:54.007 --> 00:22:59.907
It's augmented intelligence is there to help make it easier or make it better for you in terms of that training.
00:22:59.907 --> 00:23:03.596
You mentioned the people side of in your organization.
00:23:03.596 --> 00:23:06.375
Again, are your jobs going to be taken, whatever that means?
00:23:06.375 --> 00:23:13.972
But that also means that you're always on the look, as you grow your organization, for people to bring onto your team.
00:23:13.972 --> 00:23:20.368
You mentioned that you advocate, when hiring, potential over experience.
00:23:20.368 --> 00:23:24.126
Tell me a little bit more about that and how that's benefited you and your organization.
00:23:25.230 --> 00:23:25.430
Yeah.
00:23:25.430 --> 00:23:27.634
Now, obviously you can't do it for all positions.
00:23:27.634 --> 00:23:36.459
So if you're a $50 million company and you need a COO, I probably wouldn't recommend hiring somebody right out of grad school with no experience.
00:23:36.459 --> 00:23:48.799
But in most positions in the San Francisco Bay Area, where we're located, it's tough for a small bootstrap company like LearnIt to compete for talent.
00:23:49.641 --> 00:23:56.871
To compete for talent, and our secret sauce over the years is we find people with aptitude and attitude and we bring them in.
00:23:57.232 --> 00:24:13.207
You know that align with our core values that we have at LearnIt around continuous growth, teamwork, accountability, and if they have those values, then we bring them in and we give them the opportunity to learn, make mistakes and grow, which I think is incredibly important.
00:24:13.207 --> 00:24:24.247
And in doing so over these years, I look at it like sometimes we're like a minor league team where the talent comes and they stay with us for four or five years till they get brought up to the big leagues.
00:24:24.247 --> 00:24:25.349
You know, maybe they go.
00:24:25.349 --> 00:24:34.239
We've had so many employees leave learn it after four or five years and go to like a Google or something, but the great thing about that is they just always keep referring people back to learn it.
00:24:34.239 --> 00:24:40.397
So I think, as a leader, if you have the opportunity and you should look for talent.
00:24:40.397 --> 00:24:50.873
You know people who have an insatiable appetite for learning, who have communication skills and want to put in the work and are humble.
00:24:50.873 --> 00:24:54.469
Give them an opportunity, set clear goals and standards.
00:24:54.469 --> 00:25:01.596
Give them an opportunity to make mistakes, coach them through that and delegate and go from there.
00:25:03.365 --> 00:25:06.112
You're talking about that, the culture that's created.
00:25:06.112 --> 00:25:12.749
I still love the sports analogy of a minor league team up into the big leagues Again, Damon.
00:25:12.749 --> 00:25:19.777
So you've always got to be looking for new employees and you mentioned the core values of your organization, how important those are.
00:25:19.777 --> 00:25:32.282
How do you maintain that culture in your organization and, frankly, what tips would you have for other leaders who are trying to maintain a high performing culture on?
00:25:32.303 --> 00:25:32.525
their teams.
00:25:32.525 --> 00:25:37.557
Similar to what I said about AI, john, I believe it always starts at the top.
00:25:37.557 --> 00:25:50.087
You know, if you have your core values and it's some acronym and you throw it on the wall or you throw in your signature because you're a remote first company and that's it, then forget it.
00:25:50.087 --> 00:26:13.509
I feel like, as a leader of your organization and your senior team, they have to be living those values all the time, because as a leader, you know this, you're always on stage, you're always on and your team's always looking to you for how to behave and how to react and how to make decisions, and so I think modeling that behavior, first and foremost, is most important.
00:26:13.509 --> 00:26:18.038
And number two is you can't allow for toxic behavior.
00:26:18.586 --> 00:26:36.315
I've worked with so many customers I'm sure you have too where you have these top performers who are just terrible for your environment, and I believe that if you allow that to go on, the short-term win doesn't make up for the long-term impact it's going to have in your organization.
00:26:36.315 --> 00:26:54.593
So if your values are teamwork and honesty and integrity, whatever, then you need to lead by that, and if people aren't following that, then maybe first hire a coach like John and try to coach him out of that and see if it can be changed.
00:26:54.593 --> 00:27:03.194
But if not, then you got to make those bold decisions as a leader and get rid of those people to continue to grow your company culture.
00:27:03.194 --> 00:27:12.862
Because if you don't, if you don't live by the words that you say, that you want your culture to be and model it from the top, then you can't expect everybody.
00:27:12.862 --> 00:27:17.489
You want your culture to be and model it from the top, then you can't expect everybody else throughout your organization to do so either.
00:27:17.509 --> 00:27:21.436
Damon, I appreciate that call out and I know I have clients and I know people that are listening.
00:27:21.436 --> 00:27:40.394
I have team members that are dealing with that all the time with regards to someone who may be a top performer but they're not exhibiting that the values excuse me, the values that the organization states and they can ultimately end up leaving an organization as a result of that.
00:27:40.394 --> 00:27:51.766
You have to be very well aware and then again, those of you listening as well as you look at that growth journey, make sure you're not one of those ones who's creating something inside of the culture even though you're performing.
00:27:51.766 --> 00:27:58.419
Don't let your ego get in the way of your behavior, because you are always seen.
00:27:58.419 --> 00:28:01.113
Integrity is something in character in terms of what's happening.
00:28:01.113 --> 00:28:02.606
It's so important to the organization.
00:28:02.606 --> 00:28:12.116
But I can't agree with you enough that the longer you let someone like that stay in the organization, the more damage that can be done long-term.
00:28:14.491 --> 00:28:16.578
I made those mistakes over the years.
00:28:17.020 --> 00:28:18.285
I'm sure we all have Absolutely.
00:28:20.288 --> 00:28:22.311
And at the time you think you're doing the right thing.
00:28:22.311 --> 00:28:33.077
But the second you cut bait it's like a thousand pounds off everybody's shoulders and your team sees that.
00:28:33.077 --> 00:28:36.452
So I just can't highlight it enough how important it is.
00:28:37.737 --> 00:28:38.397
So important.
