Heart-Centered Leadership - The Role of Empathy with Geoffrey Roche

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, uncommon Leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader podcast and I'm your host, john Gallagher. Today I've got a truly inspiring episode lined up for you, as I'm joined by Jeffrey Roche, a leader whose career is a testament to the power of empathetic leadership, heart leadership as he talks about, and genuine human connections. Jeffrey stands out as an executive and public figure renowned for his strategic thinking, his knack for creating meaningful relationships and his unwavering commitment to fostering change, with the track record of building and transforming the partnerships and healthcare. Jeffrey is a disruptor who embraces systemic solutions and is always on the lookout for conversations and collaborations with like-minded professionals. He's an active contributor to the Ford's Business Council and he also co-hosts a very successful podcast. But at the heart of it all, jeffrey's a devoted father to three amazing sons. Get ready to be inspired, to learn and perhaps to even redefine your own leadership style. Let's get started. Jeffrey Roche, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. It's great to have you on the show. How are you doing today?

Speaker 2: 1:01

Good. Thank you, john, for having me. Good to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:04

I think it's gonna be a great conversation. As we go through the day, having gotten to chat with you beforehand, we got some great things to talk about, and I will start you, though, just like I started every first time guest with the same question to go forward. Tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today, as a leader or as a person.

Speaker 2: 1:21

Yeah, obviously there's many that come to mind, but I would say probably one of the most impactful stories from my childhood that comes to mind, that certainly has impacted me both personally and professionally, was actually being in attendance with my OMA at my mother's nursing graduation. And the reason I say that that impacted me is that my mother was a single mother, went to school later, was in school while she was still raising us. My father was still in the picture, but they were divorced and we lived set and apart and my mother had pretty much full custody and was doing everything, and so she was literally still going to school, doing all of that to become a nurse her dream and still taking care of us. And literally I can remember as a young four, five-year-old she would take us into daycare at the community college when she would go to class, and that really had a huge impact on me and influence and in many ways obviously I regularly say my mother had an impact on what brought me into healthcare, and so when I think back on that experience, certainly a very proud moment. She was the first in all of our family to go to anything related to higher education. I'm the first in our family to actually have gone to a four-year. Obviously, she was the first to go to a higher education within a two-year.

Speaker 1: 2:44

Yeah, frie, I love that story in terms of how our families can have been influenced on us for a long time, especially at a very young age. And no doubt, looking at your LinkedIn profile, education, looking at your work history, development both of those things are very important to you, and you also learned a little bit on the heart side, and so that's where I wanna dive in right off the bat is that your summary on your LinkedIn profile says you're interested in learning a bit about me, or, excuse me, if you're interested in learning a bit about me and how you became the heart leader. So tell me what is a heart leader and how did you get down that path as well?

Speaker 2: 3:21

Yeah, you know it's so interesting because you know I'm actually in a doctorate right now studying leadership, and so I've been reminded, as I'm studying, how much in many ways I get frustrated with a lot of what have been the sort of historic aspects of what leadership is. And so when I was in my healthcare system, I was blessed truly to have two of the best professional mentors that I could have ever had. One was our president and CEO and our second was one of my senior vice presidents. Both were individuals that had served in healthcare for over, at that time, 30 plus years and had been in leadership for majority of those years and early on in my career they recognized probably some things that I actually didn't. And you know, when I look back, it was me dealing with the imposter syndrome, a lot of those types of things, not realizing you know that I did have, necessarily, disability, innate ability. But one of the things they said to me quickly is they say you have an innate ability to connect with people and when you connect, you do it meaningfully and authentically. And as I started to really understand that, I truly could see that that was not only one of my qualities, traits, but also something that I truly enjoyed to do. And a current mentor of mine will say to me regularly you're just a super connector, but you don't do it to benefit yourself, you do it to help others. And she always will say to me and she's a healthcare leader herself she'll say that's amazing, because that's not common in the healthcare industry, probably not in most others. So for me, as I really looked back on that experience and really started to understand what type of leadership did I subscribe to? It was more important for me to authentically and meaningfully connect with another person, whether I was leading them or coaching them or working with them. I need to connect with them. I need to understand who they are, where they come from, what makes them unique, how could we grow and learn together? And then also, when people hear that, they say well, what about the accountability stuff? You're not gonna hold people accountable, you're too heart oriented. That has nothing to do with it. What it comes down to is that a heart leader knows at the core that you're never a leader if you can't bring other people with you, and that, as part of that, you connect with them in a very authentic way. And in doing so, not only do you inspire. Not only do you motivate, which comes back to some elements of what some would describe transformational leadership, but you do it with innate commitment to them, and so when I look back on my experiences as a leader myself and the best leaders that I've served with and worked for, that's what I saw in them.

Speaker 1: 6:13

Jeff. I love that. It's so many different ways I can go. Just from that we can have the conversation go on right from there. You mentioned it was the quality that was identified by others. You may not have noticed it in yourself at the start, but once you recognize that trait and your leaders told you this as well, I'll use a strong word you were able to leverage that in the service of others. Being an empathetic leader, no doubt about it is very important. John Maxwell coined a book, or author of a book, titled Everyone Communicates, Few Connect Identify your superpower as being a connector absolutely something that's really important. Can that ability be taught, Jeffrey? Can it be taught to other leaders?

Speaker 2: 6:55

I do think so because I think, whether an introvert or an extrovert, we still all seek some element of community. I think how it can be taught has to be done in a way that meets somebody where they're at. In doing so, help them understand the power and what the possibilities are. In fact, I have led individuals who come to mind who would tell you right away. In fact, I can remember when I first became their direct supervisor. One of them said to me I'm never going to be a leader in this organization. Then I unpacked it and I said, well, okay, so you could be a leader in another organization. They were like well, maybe. I said okay, well then guess what? We're going to work for that, because if you don't feel you could be a leader here, I'm responsible to help you develop. If it means you're not going to develop here, we'll develop you somewhere else. They looked at me and they said really. I said absolutely. I started to coach, we worked together and guess what? That individual became a leader in that organization. What she realized was she was a very silent leader, but very, very effective. As soon as we had probably one of the most strategic opportunities in our healthcare system, I went to our senior leadership, I had the battle with human resources because part of the reason she didn't think she could achieve it is she did not have a bachelor's degree. She didn't even have an associate's degree. She had been a graduate of high school In a healthcare environment, which don't even get me started. I get it in clinical areas. Licensure, get it, but in non-clinical areas, do you really have to require that? This is coming from a very strong education person I believe skills do matter Battled with HR for months and months. Finally, hr said to me clearly, you're not going to give up. If you want to do it, you do it, but if it's your mistake, you own it. I said, well, that's what leadership is. I'll own it. But guess what? I said I know it's not going to be a mess up. That person went on to serve there for many years afterwards, great successes, and I can remember when I left the organization I looked at that HR person and said do you remember that moment? She said I try not to. I said I'm sure you do, because I certainly don't, and that person doesn't. What's powerful to me about that story, john, is that individual was also a single mother. What I saw her accomplish with my support. But her accomplish was achieve her pursuit and dreams of something she never thought was possible but became possible with a catalyst simply there to help. When I look at her daughter, having attended her wedding, her daughter said to me that night of her wedding I can't thank you enough for what you did. I looked at her and I said I can't thank you enough for supporting your mother because it was truly a family commitment to the work that she did.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Jeffrey, I love that story Again. There's just so many different things that come to my mind you and your role and the experience that you had, and your family as well. Going back and tying that back to that story, we as leaders, if we recognize it, generally we're in a position to help the people that we used to be the experiences, the stories, the wisdom, the knowledge that we have from things that happened in our past that we're able to help others. I do believe that connection that you talked about is so important and those shared stories go right along with it. I think that's really cool. I want to stay on that for a little bit, because another thing you said when you answered the first question was that you recognized something that you're good at. It was something that you enjoyed doing. You either had fulfillment in that work or passion, and there's certainly a need. What you can cover those three things the opportunity for you to grow as a leader can be even more powerful as well. Inside that scope, what that person who said he or she was not a leader? We are leaders when we influence others. We don't need the title to be a leader, but how have you been able to in your various roles. Take that and, in essence, grow your influence inside of new organizations that you go to to make that leadership possible.

Speaker 2: 11:08

Yeah, I will say readily admit at times it can be really challenging. I think a lot of times the truth there is. I wish I could come here and say that I've been blessed in most of my experiences to experience really good leaders, but that just has not been the case. As I said earlier, in my healthcare environment, in many ways I felt like I was in a blue ocean Because I truly could walk around and still to this day, many of them have moved on and are in other organizations, but I see what they're doing from an impact end and I was just truly blessed to have had that experience. The downside is that was almost 10 years of my career the majority in many ways of my career and I haven't necessarily seen the same level yet of the same quality of leadership. What's interesting is, as you know, when you are very passionate and committed to, for example, heart leadership or empathetic leadership, I believe and it's probably maybe something I'll study, but I do believe that you actually can create an internal stressor or battle for other quote-unquote leaders, because what I have experienced and what I've seen in other organizations is that, just by my way of how I lead not about role, not about title, about how we impact one another, how we support one another I have seen other leaders get not just jealous but outright look to really ostracize me, and what I've seen in that is they see the proof is in the pudding. The other members of the community are flocking to me, they're not flocking to them and obviously, for those that are in roles of critical importance to them, that's the last thing that they want to see. And so I think this is a really interesting element and I do believe again, don't have any empirical data to support on this just yet but I do believe in many ways, if we would study this further, we would see a direct correlation back to recruitment and retention challenges, because there's a lot of really solid professionals that are also, I think, in this boat, and some people just go with the flow. I'm not one that just goes with the flow and a lot of ways I credit that back to my mother. She never went with the flow either, and I saw that because, again, we worked in the same health care system. She was not there when I was there, but a lot of her colleagues were, and so I had the great benefit of hearing many stories and such too. So that's what has really been my experience. But what's important, john, is when you know that that's your brand of leadership, you stick with it and you realize that those moments may be tough absolutely but they do make you stronger and in doing so you know you still are impacting lives and at the end of the day, that's something I can go to bed at night and say I'm OK with.

Speaker 1: 14:22

Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share something special with you. Many of the topics and discussions we have on this podcast are areas where I provide coaching and consulting services for individuals and organizations. If you've been inspired by our conversation and are seeking a catalyst for change in your own life or within your team, I invite you to visit coachjohngallaghercom forward slash free call to sign up for a free coaching call with me. It's an opportunity for us to connect, discuss your unique challenges and explore how coaching or consulting can benefit you and your team. Ok, let's get back to the show. I love that, and there's just so many things there in terms of that impact. You have impact on others. They remember those stories. You know the Maya Angelou quote about. They don't remember what you said or what you did, but they'll remember how you made them feel is coming through in terms of what you're talking about. So you know that empathetic leader sometimes gets a stigma as well. You touched on a little bit. The other word is accountability. So how do you, as an empathetic leader, as a heart leader also, in essence hold others accountable, because sometimes the two don't go necessarily hand in hand when it comes to leadership.

Speaker 2: 15:36

Yeah, you know, I think what I have learned, and you know as somebody who's been blessed to be part of really high performing organizations but also high performing teams is, you know, when I look at my former senior vice president, he was a hard charging, very successful leader in health care In fact numerous awards, well recognized in the field by competitors and those that would consider to be, you know, cooperators. You know at times where we were working with competitors but doing some things. We called him co-op petition, co-op petition, yeah, but he was very principled. And what I learned from him when it came to accountability is and this is something I wish I saw more in organizations is when you set a mission, vision, values, when you set a strategic plan, you cascade that down and you get the buy-in of all the stakeholders so that they can understand where they fit in into leading and contributing to that strategic plan. And that's what he would do with us. And so, you know, at the C-suite level, he was doing it. Then at the director level, he was doing it, and then we were charged to do the same thing with our teams and then we would have regular reporting out. We had a process, a structure worked really, really well, and then we would get held accountable on it and I knew at all periods of time in a quarter yes, it was not for profit healthcare, but I knew at all times in a quarter what I was responsible to achieve and I knew at each point in time where my team was responsible and I knew what he was responsible. And so, when you think about that, it was very transparent and so I learned in that process that type of an approach. Now let me say to your point I've been part of organizations some that I've been even more recently where I was definitely a much more empathetic leader. I moved on. A different type of leader came in and thick leader and my other team�� I've already heard them say oh, you know, he was just two people focused, two people focused. Well, the reality is, is the churn that's occurred as a result of that different leader being in there says a lot? And I think that that we have to remember that accountability does not mean treating people with disrespect. Accountability means walking with them along that journey and helping them succeed. And so, for all those quote, unquote leaders in the world, what I would always ask them to think about is have you asked your member of the team if you could be of any help to them Nine times out of 10. That's not the case, but when I looked at the leaders that I worked with who taught me sort of the art of this type of stuff, I regularly had them checking in, regularly checking in, and I had to do the same. In fact, one of the qualities I loved about my senior vice president was he would, he would do a spot check. He called it and I remember at first when I became a director, I was nervous. I didn't even know what a spot check was. But what a spot check meant was he would pick up the phone and call any member of your team and ask them if they felt you were supporting them in the way that he supported me. And I will never forget walking into his office for one of my weekly one on ones. And he said to me I have contacted every member of your team, which is a pretty large team. And he said I can't talk about how much I appreciate the consistency. And I thought, oh boy, where's this guy? And and because he just said that. And then he went on to say not only are they hearing you talk about how we achieve the results, but they're also hearing. You ask them how they're doing hearing. You ask them how they're doing Hearing. You ask them how their family is hearing. You ask if there's anything you could do to support them. And again, I learned that from him, I learned that from our CEO, because they were so people focused, yes, driven, very successful, and but they were still people focused, and so that's what comes to mind for me.

Speaker 1: 19:45

So you believe both those things are possible, which is really cool. We can hold each other accountable and we can be empathetic leaders that are there to equip and inspire and encourage our team members to succeed, providing them with the systems and tools that they need to be successful. I want to zoom out just a little bit because I think it's important. I mean in your role now and workforce development and some of your studying and things like that, especially in healthcare. While this is not a healthcare podcast per se, you have obviously most of your background being in healthcare. I've got 10 years of experience, 10 to 15 years of consulting inside of that space and one thing I would identify no doubt about it is that the healthcare industry in general is not great at developing their workforce, especially in the world of leadership development. They're very good at promoting the best physician to the next level up in terms of the organization, but not again equipping them to be the leaders they need to be successful. So you lose that cadence, you lose that cascading, you lose that connection and understanding and tying to the goals. Where do you, where have you seen the healthcare systems in general grow or not grow in form of workforce development and what gets in their way. I mean, why is it so hard?

Speaker 2: 20:56

Yeah, Well, I think, first and foremost, you know, as you heard me reference earlier, healthcare is an industry that is the most regulated and most licensed and instead of innovating around that, we have really just reacted to it. That's just the case in majority of organizations that I've worked with, seen and experienced, and I think you know we see it even in the fact that healthcare was one of the slowest organizations to have a chief learning officer, and yet we still have a very, very small resource when you really look at it. You know, when you look at most healthcare systems, the learning and development operation of a system is is, you know, a handful of people, two thousands of workforce and, to your exact point, because of that, so often they're focused on leadership at the top, supporting leadership development there, not able, even though they want to, not able at scale, to focus on all professions. And so you know there's a challenge there from a resource perspective. But ultimately, I do believe in many ways healthcare has kind of created this mess themselves. You know, we we sit in an industry that really should innovate around skills. There are many roles in healthcare that should not have to have to have a college degree. Why not invest in somebody, support them, take the first step that you have as an employer. Put them into a role, grow them like an apprenticeship type model, pay for their education and show them the journey, Because nine times out of 10, if you do that and you have good culture, they're going to stay for a very long time. Look, I started my career at my healthcare system and I would still be there today, to be quite honest, if we didn't go through an acquisition. And why is? Not only was it an amazing almost 10 years, but they invested in me multiple times master's degree. They invested in me and other leadership type programs. They invested in me in conferences. They invested in me and at the same time, I, as a director, had the opportunity to invest in my team members. I'll never forget the time HR questioned me when I said I was going to put a colleague of mine who was not clinical she wanted to become a nurse and they said, well, you're going to lose a position and if you lose a position, there's no chance you're going to get that position back. And I said I'm okay with that. She's going to become a nurse, Don't you need that nurse on the field. And they were like well, we very interesting, and so I think we have a lot of work to do in these cases. And, to your point, we need to really embrace career mobility and we have to understand that we've got seven, they say, different generations in the workplace today, and what has worked for one does not necessarily mean it's going to work for the next. And I tell people all the time I'm happy to own my label as a millennial, Because what it really means to me is that we want a positive community culture that welcomes, appreciates values and listens to us. That's what we strive for, and I think every generation has a different element of what's important to them and as leaders, we got to find a way to work with that, not ostracize it.

Speaker 1: 24:12

But work with it. Seven generations. That's difficult to address from a leadership. So understanding that right off the bat is very important. Then you can to your point, then you can address it. So let's talk about that, because the other side you mentioned and I know, jeffrey, you are big into self development and self care as well. So I'm going to go down two paths here, both those paths from a self development standpoint. So really just focusing on the career side of it, what role does the employee play in their own self development? And what I mean there is, to your point, you've had managers or leaders who have not been focused on your development, so you've had to do things on your own. Or you've had environments where you have had investment. What role does the employee play in there?

Speaker 2: 24:57

the employee. I think the employee plays a huge role. You know, when I look at again, my experience was, you know, was in my healthcare system, where we had a very defined personal development plan. We called it a PDP, and every employee got it. It didn't matter on title, in fact, even the senior vice presidents, the vice presidents, they all had it too. But, to your point, the employee played a really pivotal role Because when I was not a director and I was an entry level professional at the time, I had a PDP and my leader, which most of the time happened to be that senior vice president, would meet with me, not annually, not bi-annually, but as part of every month. When we had a one-on-one we would have a check-in and on every one-on-one like that, he would say to me where do you see yourself here in the next year? What will help you achieve that? And then, obviously, as you get closer to the mid-years and the annual, you would even get more intentional around those types of things. And so for me, when I look back as an employee, it was pivotal. In fact, when I look at so many organizations which are not doing these types of things, I think, wow, like I can't imagine my place was that special. We just had people who cared for other people. You've got to have these things Because I think what it does is it allows the employee to be a little bit in the driver's seat, not on just their personal journey but also their professional journey, and then if they have leaders and others who want to help them achieve that, they're in a position. So back to that story I was sharing before. My one employee wanted to become a nurse. It came up in one of our PDP discussions, so I'll never forget it, and she was to this day. She would be shocked when we had this discussion because she remembers it. She said this to me and I immediately picked up the phone in the middle of the PDP discussion and I called over to our nurse manager in CVTelli and I said hey, guess what? So-and-so is interested to become a nurse. Do you have a moment? Can I send her over? And she's like absolutely. I said I want her to shadow with you the rest of the day because I want her to see. And so she did that. She said to me, came back, she said can I do that with more Absolutely? She said really. I said absolutely, this is what's going to allow you to decide if it's really what you want to do. So she continued to do it, continued to do it, came back finally and said to me I want to do it. I said to her she said do we have to do anything? And she said no. I said I'll put it into your PDP. So I worked with our senior vice president. I looked at all those angles, I looked at what she figured out, where she wanted to go. I knew that that would mean we would lose her in her full-time role. I found a way to keep her on per diem so that she would also still have a job while she was doing her studies, again not working as much, but covering when she could. Yes, that meant I was losing a full-time position, which HR was so concerned about, but I was able to fill it with all the other per diems. And so for me that PDP for an employee is so powerful and to this day she's traveling this country as a nurse, supporting hospitals all across the country that need support, and I know just recently she's kind of now settled where she wants to be. But it's been an amazing journey just to watch that and know that I had just a little bit of part of it.

Speaker 1: 28:16

Love that. Thank you for sharing that. And if you think about your own journey, jeffrey, and I know we're coming up on time. It's been a great conversation. I'd like to keep going, if you have a few more minutes. You've got to take initiatives as an employee, too, to develop yourself in many spaces, both in your workplace, but also outside of work. So you've referred to some of the things I've seen in your post, talked about self-care. What are some unique habits that you have to develop yourself to ensure that when you show up, you're ready to be there as the leader? You need to be as the father? You need to be as the friend? You need to be.

Speaker 2: 28:51

Yeah Well, let me just readily admit, and all my friends and colleagues that will watch this will say that this is a journey for all of us, right? And the first thing I always ask is for Grace, because this self-care is not easy, and what I have learned really in the last year. Further Now, the irony is that earlier in my career I was doing a lot of self-care, then kind of fell off, got so busy, got busier, you name it. And what I have learned and continue to learn, and really with inspiration from others like Dr Jonathan Fisher, who I'm sure you've seen Dr Fisher is a cardiologist at Novant, big leader in this conversation of self-care and mindfulness, and folks like that have really kind of called me out respectfully with what they write, what they say, and for me in doing so, it has really become not just a pivotal element for me to get up and go for a run in the morning or get up and hit my Peloton bike, but it is really that moment where I have, you know, a good 30 minutes to an hour just to reflect and know that I'm helping my health both mentally and physically and, you know, to your point, even as a father, it's really really important and you know not to get you know into a subject of sadness, but you know, when I look at you know I lost my father two years ago to sudden cardiac arrest and when I look at you know my oldest son remembers that day very, very much and I personally okay, sharing it have a pacemaker because I have sinus bradycardia, and so my son has said to me that's not gonna be you, daddy. And when I think about that, you know he knows it's very real to him, and when I think about that, there's nothing more important than I can do to ensure that I'm being healthy and I'm ensuring that I'm being well, even though there are days when I'm stressed. The other thing, I'll be honest I love the ORA ring. Love the ORA ring because you know what it shares with you is powerful from a data perspective, and so the medical wearable devices, things like that, are really, really important. But that's the type of stuff that I really continue to focus on when I could get better is kind of taking a little bit of breaks in the day. You know where I'm just kind of, you know even, you know just meditating or giving some thought, you know little bits of pieces in between meetings, because I know that that could help me.

Speaker 1: 31:20

We live in a world, especially with Zoom now, right, it's meeting after meeting, after meeting, and one of the things that I really try to work with folks is like give yourself like an hour long meeting, make it a 50 minute meeting. So you give yourself 10 minutes to just to decompress from that one and prepare for the next one, Because we're really good at being efficient with Zoom and saying how good that can be. Or even again in the workplace, meeting after meeting, or walking, you give yourself time to walk to the meeting, to take a break. You're exactly right. And look, Jeffrey, I want to recognize you and something that you understand, that what Ben Newman and coaching would refer to as the burn, whether it's, you know, for me it's the, so that, but you know your, your, this self-care is not just important for you back to your empathetic leader, for your, for your sons, that you can be there for them and that you've got to be healthy to be with them, and it's thank you for sharing that. And I know those are. Those are not easy, and you mentioned not to be sad. No, those are things that impact us Absolutely in terms of changing our journey. Jeffrey, you've been very gracious with your time. I want to ask, I want folks to be able to stay in connection with you. How? What's the best way to stay connected with you so that they can learn from you?

Speaker 2: 32:31

Yeah, definitely linked in. Happy to connect at any time and you know anyone.

Speaker 1: 32:35

feel free to reach out, I will put a link to your LinkedIn profile in the show notes to make sure folks can do that, and I encourage everybody to follow Jeffrey. He posts some really good stuff from workforce development, self-care and the leadership development space on his site, and I think it's something that you can really benefit from, jeffrey. This conversation has been awesome. I want to finish up with the same question that I always finish up with. It's almost the chance for you to kind of give advice to the leaders that are listening in on the podcast, but I'm going to give you a billboard and put that billboard anywhere you want to without leading you too much there. What do you put on that billboard and why do you put that message on there?

Speaker 2: 33:15

No, I would without question put on, since it's a billboard recognized, you know, after my myself of those days of analyzing and stuff in my hospital days, I would put up community, and the reason I say that is that right now, in this world, in our workplaces, we all need community, and for me that's what leadership should truly be about. And so I'd put up the word community and then I would have a link to find out more for inspiration type of thing, go here. And because I think everybody wants it, we all want a sense of belonging, and it's not about you know, it's not about you know I'm this, you're this. It's truly about we all are here, you know, working to do the same thing, and so that's what I would do. Love that message.

Speaker 1: 34:08

Simple and one word, but it is powerful in terms of going for that and what we need inside of, as you said, inside of our homes, inside of our communities, our workplaces in our country. Right now as well, no doubt about a community is needed. Jeffrey, I've enjoyed the conversation. I appreciate you being a guest on the Uncommon Leader Podcast. I wish you the best in the future and I hope we stay connected.

Speaker 2: 34:30

Thank you so much. I appreciate it very much.

Speaker 1: 34:36

And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon Leader Podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you found value in this episode, I encourage you to share it with your friends, colleagues or anyone else who could benefit from the insights and inspiration we've shared. Also, if you have a moment, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback not only helps us to improve, but it also helps others discover the podcast and join our growing community of Uncommon Leaders. Until next time, go with Grow Champions MUSIC.