Leading with Joy: Dr. Mike Hayes on Happiness, Faith, and Purpose

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I'm real happy and right below it I'm going to put I wish I had known all this earlier, because I lived for years not fully understanding the subject that I should have really delved into, but for some reason I was deceived.

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I thought it was trivial.

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Hey, uncommon Leaders, welcome back.

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This is the Uncommon Leader Podcast and I'm your host, john Gallagher.

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Today I had the chance to sit down with Dr Mike Hayes for an insightful discussion on the deeper meaning of happiness and joy.

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Pastor Mike shares personal trials and triumphs, shedding light on how to find a resilient form of happiness even in the face of adversity.

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We dive deep into his book Real Happy and the lessons he learned from historical Roman practices, modern misunderstandings and his own life's challenges.

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Join us as we explore how leaders can harness joy as a powerful tool and advocate for gradual personal growth.

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This episode is a journey through faith, leadership and the pursuit of authentic happiness.

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Let's get started.

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Dr Mike Hayes, it's great to have you on the Uncommon Leader podcast.

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Welcome to the show.

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How are you doing today?

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I'm great, John.

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It's really good to be on with you.

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Thank you so much for the opportunity.

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You are welcome and I'm looking forward to our conversation.

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I already regret not hitting the record button as soon as we got started.

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We had some great things to talk about already, so let's see if we can keep that conversation going.

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But I will start you off the same time, same way I start off all my first time guests, and that's to ask you to tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are today as a person or as a leader.

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Well, my dad and mom, John, were very different people, beautifully married for 60 years.

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Both of them passed now, but dad was a clown and a fun lover and a hard worker and mom was a thinker and a contemplator and a very wise woman.

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So when I was about, my dad had been a pastor and I'd been around that environment and we did a lot of missions work among Native Americans in northern Arizona and that was my background and I really did feel a call early on, maybe 14.

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I was sitting down in the kitchen with mom.

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I used to have conversations with her while she was fixing dinner and I said mom, I got a problem.

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She said what is it?

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And I said, well, I really a really a problem.

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She said, what is it?

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And I said, well, I really feel like I have a calling on my life to make a difference and do something for people, but I I can't.

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If I can do it without having to get up in front of people and talk, I'll do anything.

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And because that was my paradigm, if you're going to be a leader, you've got to speak.

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And I was really bashful, I didn't have any guts for getting up in front of a crowd of people and I said Mom, you know I watch.

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She said, well, a lot of guys are doing that.

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And I said I know I watch a lot of them, but here's the problem I'm not only bashful, but I can't do it like they're doing.

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I don't even want to do it like they're doing.

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And you know, just a little statement turned it around for me, john and mom said you know what, mike, you don't have to do it like they do it.

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That's not what you're called to do.

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You do it like you're supposed to, but do it If you feel that call.

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You're not in it to emulate anyone else.

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Do it like you do it, but do it.

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And gosh, some of the most insecure leaders that I see, john and you and I both know that there are leaders that are leading, but they're insecure.

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And some of the most insecure leaders that I see are guys that have not figured out yet who they are.

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You can tell that.

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In fact, I told a guy the other day.

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I can tell you you've been with in the first five minutes of talking to me, because you're talking just like Ben.

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So we've got to get our own identity.

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Mike, I appreciate that, and the story I mean of that right, you don't have to do it like others and even as you coach and mentor others now, whether they're in the church or whether they're business leaders that attend as well is that you have that story.

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You have that experience of the insecurities that you had.

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You are really qualified, if you will, to help them, because that was you and I've heard the quote before you're most powerfully positioned to help the person that you used to be.

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I think it's absolutely true, and we use those stories from our past to influence how we influence more in the future.

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So I am glad that your mom told that to you and you overcame.

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I've heard some of your messages online and I think you have a powerful approach, absolutely in your own way, and it works really well.

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Thank you for sharing that.

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And it lines up with probably some of the other things you've seen is that you've got something to say.

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You're a multi-time author, if you will, but you have a new one that just came out, real Happy Jesus' Surprising Path to Genuine Joy.

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So that's the primary way we got connected today was that book.

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I know we have more than that to talk about today.

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But let's start with the book.

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Why is it that you wrote that book and who did you write it for?

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Interesting question, john.

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You know I was actually about seven years ago.

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I go to Israel about every year and I had taken about 100 pilgrims that wanted to tour the country.

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We were up in the north of Galilee and back in those days they didn't have like a church and a porch and all that built where you could sit down formally.

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They just had the hillside with the boulders on it and the poppies growing everywhere where Jesus would have sat.

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There wasn't a building there in those days.

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There wasn't a building there in those days and I had finished teaching on the Beatitudes and just felt this gentle nudge to write a book about it.

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Now I'm going to be honest with you, john.

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My first reaction I mean anytime I think it's a God thing I sure don't want to say no, but my first reaction shows my ignorance about the subject.

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Because I literally said in my response to what I felt, because there was a real after I'd taught that day that people were picking like a poppy.

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To remember, there was like a gentle, impactful kind of a peaceful contemplation.

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Everybody was in.

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It was a really sweet thing going on.

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So when I felt that in my heart, the first thing I said to God was why don't you pick something like really important to you?

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Because, I mean, I've got a doctorate in philosophy and theology and you want me to write about happy.

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And that shows my ignorance, john, because I was right where a lot of matter.

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What Judaism all of them, whether by design or mistake, all of them have painted their deity, whatever their God is supposed to be like, is mostly angry, reluctant, judgmental and dishing out a lot of shame.

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Angry, reluctant, judgmental and dishing out a lot of shame.

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And, john, I was raised by really good people, but I'm telling you, whether it was their fault or mine, by the time I was 12 or 14 years old, I loved God, I wanted to know him better, but I was so full of shame it was like if I didn't know I'd done something wrong.

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Then there must be something you're not looking for deep enough, because there's something you've done wrong all the time, because I just never had the feeling that I measured up.

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It didn't matter how good you were, you were never quite good enough, and so I bore that weight.

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So I bore that weight and I'm telling you, as Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount, his first sermon and one of his greatest, it's not possible to be anxious about something and be happy at the same time.

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So Jesus, literally in the Sermon on the Mount, attacks anxiety and gives us all the points we need for overcoming it, why we have it and how we overcome it.

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And that's why I put a red poppy on the front of the book, because we were sitting among the poppies.

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And that's what Jesus said.

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The translators changed the word of the 15th century, but they got it wrong.

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It was right in the beginning.

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They translated it.

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Here's the way the first beatitude translates, and this is where the trouble starts.

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The beatitude reads like this in English blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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Well, that's a bad translation into English on several levels.

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One of them is that the word translated blessed are sort of gives us a kind of a blessed are kind of a prayerful, religious thing, when in fact Jesus used the pop culture Greek word makarios, which means to be filled with joy and happiness.

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But to the Greeks, john, makarios was a happiness only reserved for the deity, for gods.

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The gods of the Greek culture could enjoy happiness, but not us commoners.

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People are just here to suffer through and the gods live in opulence and joy and we live hopelessly.

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That was dragged over from the Greek culture in through the Romans and had infected the land of Israel during Jesus' time, and that's why he was saying what are you so anxious about?

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Look at these red poppies.

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They didn't work, they didn't toil, they didn't labor, but Solomon, in all his glory, was never dressed like one of them.

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Stop worrying and be happy.

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So when he used that and then I began to really do the research on his eight Beatitudes, that all begin with the first one translated, I just shared with you blessed are the poor in spirit actually gave rise to major denominations, creating vows of poverty for all those who work for the church, because, after all, jesus said you'd be blessed if you're poor.

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But that's not what it said.

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What he said was it's really interesting, john, but that's not what it said.

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What he said was it's really interesting, john?

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The first Beatitude of the Eight says Makarios really happy are those who present an empty place.

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The Greek word is literally void, a void for me to fill.

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See, we're all scared to death of empty things.

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Somebody didn't call us back, the warehouse is half empty and God actually says I like empty places because it gives me a chance to fill something with something you don't have.

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So the first beatitude is, literally if you'll give me some empty place inside you where I can fill it, you'll be really happy.

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So the journey started there and seven years later, six years later, we released the book, not knowing, john, what kind of things we were going to face in those five years.

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Here I am writing a book on happiness and COVID hits.

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My daughter shares with us.

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She's got a second bout of stage four cancer.

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My son is in leadership with me at the church and hits a wall and has to resign and get some help.

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He's doing well, thank now, and so is my daughter.

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But during those dark days I thought I was going to lose both of my children and then I had turned the church over to them, the younger generation, and when my son resigned I sat in and Covenant is a major church.

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You know it's five campuses and 10,000 people or so, so there's a lot to it.

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I sat in a young man that was my son in the gospel, that I trained and educated and he'd worked with me for 20 years and he dies with COVID 10 days and he was 56 years old.

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Picture of health, two boys playing college football and he gets COVID and dies in 10 days.

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And I'm writing a book on happiness, so I had no idea what I was about to face.

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We have discovered a kind of happiness and a level of happiness that absolutely cannot be offended in the worst of times.

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It is a strong foundation and you don't process.

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I've written eight books.

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This is my eighth and it's impacted me personally more than any book I've written.

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It certainly sounds that way in terms of the stories, the experiences that you've had and, again, the opportunity to be able to feel happy in those times is so important, mike.

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You coach leaders, you have mentored others, you're a champion inside of your church, still now, for unity.

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When you think about that, whether it's with your congregation or, again, those leaders that you coach, that come to you for help, the COVID, those cancer things are many things that keep them from happy.

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Look, I remember and I don't think my parents ever said it to me, but I remember hearing adults telling their kids I'll put the fear of God into you To have that and be that.

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You know that fear versus you know the happiness or joy that comes with it.

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What are some of the things that you see today that keep them from experiencing that happiness that is in those Beatitudes, that is in that Sermon on the Mount?

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Well, one of the things I see, john, for sure is that young leaders are we've been bit by the materialism bug and we place a lot of importance on what we have or what somebody else has that we wish we had.

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And we have this unbelievable smorgasbord of information more than we've ever had in our lives.

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With the advent of internet and smartphones and AI, I figured something out you don't even have to have a relationship with God to be a pastor and preach pretty good sermons.

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Now you're going to ask AI to build you one.

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You'll do it in about 30 seconds and give you 30 minutes worth of material, but it doesn't do anything for you on your inside.

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So what I'm finding in the guys I'm coaching even in business, john is that some of them are really unhappy because they've been successful in every way.

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They were told they could be successful and it's not what they thought it was going to be when they got there.

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I just had a business leader yesterday I was coaching.

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Tell me, I'm just unhappy.

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My business is doing great.

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He's got 40 restaurants.

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I don't know what all else he has, but he said what I've built is a monster that requires my time and my thought day and night and I don't really know what I'm doing this for anymore, because just the toys are not doing it.

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I'm going to have to get some kind of important purpose for what I'm doing.

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It's like our friend John Maxwell.

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You and I talked about him before coming on.

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Friend John Maxwell, you and I talked about him before coming on.

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John was at my church one time and he said he told the crowd there business people.

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He said you know, and this is so true, john.

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He said the passions for giving to a cause and changing the world.

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The fires of those passions are not lit by passing a plate under his nose at offering time.

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And that's true.

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Successful people are often driven people and they've got to have some kind of reason.

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Why are we doing all this?

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And when they don't figure that out, they are really in trouble.

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And, john, I do want to mention this because it's really pertinent and it is the subsequent book that Dr Jeff and I are coming out with, the first of 25.

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It ties to real happy and it's called Real Hope Redeeming the Apocalypse to a Victorious Outcome is the subtitle, because everybody's looking for the apocalypse of the world.

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How's it going to end?

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When's it going to end.

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It's probably going to be in our lifetime.

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What is the mark of the beast going to look like?

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I'm scared of this and scared of that, and you know what's resulted in that which is, in my opinion, bad doctrine, by the way but what's resulted in that is a generation of people who don't understand.

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Why would I work this hard to be polishing brass on a sinking Titanic If this is all going to come to nothing?

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What are we doing this for?

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And that's why our research on hope has led us to the teachings about the last days.

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Where's the world going?

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What's going to happen?

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What's going to happen to us?

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Is it just going to be nuclear war and a balls of fire and the stars falling from the sky and nobody can live filled with joy and happiness and have this sense of impending doom.

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Like the Chicken Little kind of story, the sky is falling.

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So I like to say that bad doctrines always lead us to a bad outcome, and that's some bad doctrines that we picked up over the last two centuries in the Christian church.

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That is killing us because we put our activity for changing the world like I used to do in grandpa's old truck I've kind of thrown it into neutral and just coasted down the hill, because I'm not sure what we're supposed to be doing and that's what we have to do is we've got to get re-engaged and understand what our place is and really make a difference in the world.

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So important, so important, so important, Mike, and that actually goes.

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Even you look back as well the book Real Hope.

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Looking Forward, Looking back, you wrote a book Influence Becoming the Leader that Changes the World.

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You are called to lead and you know our friend who introduced us, Nick Hutchinson.

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He wrote a book that's behind my shoulder, the Rise of the Reader, and he talks about the combination of those books in terms of can I take two books and put them together and really find something?

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He refers to it lovingly as book sex, as he brings it together, and I think we can say that on a podcast like this.

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But either way, there's a level, as you mentor others, that you're charging them to be the leader that they were called to be, and you're also charging them to do it by being happy, by being hopeful.

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You started to talk about this with a little bit of that leader that you were there.

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How can leaders ultimately use joy to influence others if you bring those two things together?

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to influence others.

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If you bring those two things together.

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Well, that's a great concept, john, and that's what I'm after, because I will tell you my own personal experience, and I'm probably maybe I know I'm more touchy with this than my wife Kathy.

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She's always happy and always believes the best about everything and everybody.

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It is really difficult for me to do business with a really miserable or unhappy person.

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I don't want them waiting on my table for dinner.

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I don't want them cleaning my house.

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I don't want them working up under my sink to repair a pipe.

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If you can't have an attitude of thankfulness, I'm glad to be here.

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Listen, as small a thing as Chick-fil-A, changing the culture of the fast food industry and one of the things that the the founder established years ago.

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I know a guy that owns some Chick-fil-A is quite a program, but you know he was uh, uh, he was.

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The old founder was right on the uh saying when somebody says thank you very much, don't say to them no problem.

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That's not even the answer.

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They didn't say there was a problem.

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You say it's my pleasure.

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Well, the reason for that is because people naturally like to interact with pleasant people.

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I can tell you, john, in a business world.

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I've got a pretty good list.

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I'm a project guy, so I want to have my flooring guy, my electrician, my plumber, and sometimes you have to work through those relationships.

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But I've just figured out that people that have a basic sense of joy and happiness in their life are more pleasant to be around and they do better work.

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Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share something special with you.

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Many of the topics and discussions we have on this podcast are areas where I provide coaching and consulting services for individuals and organizations.

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If you've been inspired by our conversation and are seeking a catalyst for change in your own life or within your team, I invite you to visit coachjohngallaghercom.

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Forward slash free call to sign up for a free coaching call with me.

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It's an opportunity for us to connect, discuss your unique challenges and explore how coaching or consulting can benefit you and your team.

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Okay, let's get back to the show.

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Absolutely so.

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That makes it better, a better work environment and all those things.

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One of the ways that you help leaders, mike, what I've read is with your transformative process called Make Room, involves reconnecting with the core values and building connections.

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How do you use that to, in essence, help leaders be better leaders?

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Well, I mentioned a while ago, john, the advent of Internet and all that, the unbelievable mountain of any kind of material we want to draw together that is available to us.

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But for leaders I think that it has become so cluttered and the noise, the din of noise in society is so loud.

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You have to intentionalize getting away and you also have to intentionalize making room.

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Have to intentionalize making room.

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That first parable.

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It used the word in the Greek void or empty, and Jesus said happy are those who create empty spaces that I can fill.

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You know, I'm not opposed to this.

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If you're making money at it, it's good for you.

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God bless you.

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But can you believe, john, that one of the top investment opportunities in the nation is storage buildings?

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Invest in storage warehouses where people that have filled their house, their closet, their garage and their yard can now go down the street and rent another space for storing stuff.

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So we are unbelievable at.

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I don't know all the reasons we do this.

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I know that my dad said he used to do it because he knew the pain of World War II and the carefulness that they had to siphon gas and use every drop and the food at the grocery store wasn't guaranteed, but in time of plenty where, instead of cleaning out our closet, ending up with it half full and giving the other half of it to the nearest ministry down the street, that's feeding people on the street to the nearest ministry down the street, that's feeding people on the street.

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When we've got 100 and we're standing in our closet scratching our head and can't figure out what to wear.

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We've got to give some stuff away and I've found that clearing out space physically, because we are body, soul and spirit, we're a triune being.

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So my closet and my garage is just physical.

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But I'm telling you, I get a lift in my mind, I get excited in my creativity when I clean out a space and make room for something else, and it's the first principle of happiness.

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We've got too much junk in our lives and it's much more simple.

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One of the reasons, john, if you don't mind me sharing this I coined a new word for our new book, real Hope, and I figured out something about the way the kingdom of God works In my lifetime.

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I was 20 years old in 1970 when a book came out called the Late Great Planet Earth and it sold about 100 million copies and it changed a generation to a cataclysmic change that was going to come by nuclear wars and fallen stars and the end of the world.

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That's why it was called the late great planet Earth.

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And what I've learned, john, is that we have trained up a generation of people especially exposed to that kind of Christianity.

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We have raised a generation of people expecting a cataclysmic end.

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It could be at any time, it could be at midnight tonight.

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And it has stolen from us the ability and the desire and the skill development to gradually keep moving the ball down the field and making the world a better place.

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So I've coined a new word called gradualism.

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And it's really the way the kingdom of God was designed to work.

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Jesus said it so plainly when he said the kingdom of God is like a mustard seed, the smallest seed in your hand.

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You can hardly see it.

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But he said if you plant it in years to come it will be the largest tree in your area and it will give shelter to strangers and the birds can come and build nests in this massive tree.

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But it happened from the smallest seed and years of watering and growing it.

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And then he said the kingdom is like leaven.

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You put a little yeast in a large ball of dough and eventually the whole thing rises because it has spread to every cell.

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That's the way God's kingdom, the kingdom of light and goodness, is designed to work, not through cataclysmic, explosive, destructive outcomes, but by gradually growing.

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Every day it's a little better, it's a little bigger, it's a little clearer.

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And, paul, you know my influence book you mentioned John came about because I was here again.

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I was in Israel and I was on the seacoast, there on the Mediterranean, at the city of Caesarea, and the guide was showing us the remains of the jail where Paul was likely held, before they put him on a ship to Rome to be tried.

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And my book influence started from this story.

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How does a man like Paul, who's been beaten and put in a jail cell, then they put him on a boat to Rome to be tried as a criminal because he's trying to start an insurrection, they say when he gets to Rome, they drop the case, they let him go.

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And three or four years later best we can tell he writes a letter to one of his churches that he oversees in Thessaloniki in Greece, and he says greetings to all of you.

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All the saints in Rome send greetings, especially all of Caesar's household and that stopped me in my tracks and I said my gosh, that's the influence of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

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Is that Paul can leave Israel as a prisoner and end up in Rome as a pastor, leading most of Caesar's family to faith?

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That's influence.

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He landed there like a wet rat on the shore and he ends up pastoring most of Caesar's family.

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That's the way the spirit of influence works and we all have that and that's why we got to be filled with joy.

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I so appreciate it and I love the new word.

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I hope you announce that today and we're going to use that.

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We're going to gradualism as you go forward, as you talked about, make room and it's the space of our stuff, small s At least.

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I heard a couple of things.

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One is be intentional.

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You've got to be intentional about that.

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You've got to make a choice and then do something about it, and that reminds me kind of the Philippians 4.8, 4.9, or Philippians 4.8 talks about think on these things, whatever's true, noble, right, excellent, praiseworthy.

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Think on these things, but 4.9, you can't stop it.

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Thinking no-transcript leaps, it's just continuous improvement over and over again.

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That is what God is looking for.

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He wants us to take action in that space.

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And, leaders, if you pay attention to that in terms of your daily mentoring and coaching of others, you don't have to get them there in one big leap.

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It's taking that ax or dripping on that rock, whatever you got to do over and over, and the water wins as you go forward.

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So your book back to the specific book that we talked about today, real Happy and as you get others coming out, frankly, I'd love to continue the conversation as you get and bring each one of these books out, with this one specifically.

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With regards to Real Happy.

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What do you want folks to feel and do as a result of reading the book, after they're done reading it?

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I think they feel much more happy in their lives.

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The real thing.

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Someone said to me well, don't you think that the Bible was more interested in you having joy and not happiness, because they make joy kind of a more solid thing.

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What we found in our research is in Jesus' day was actually just the opposite.

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Happiness was the real condition, that was continual, and joy was what you feel at a birthday party that kind of goes away in a few minutes.

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And joy was what you feel at a birthday party that kind of goes away in a few minutes.

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And we've kind of flipped the script on that.

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We kind of think somehow joy sounds more spiritual, but they're really the same concept in those ancient times and what I want people to see and that they can live with joy.

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John, because there are so many things in the book, like on one of the parables Jesus said you could be happy even though you're being persecuted for righteousness sake.

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So this secular firm that's helping us out of New York market this book.

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They were reading that and the first day and I have a lot of friends that are Jews, I go to Israel a lot but these guys said look, we're basically godless Jews and so you're going to have to train us, what is this about?

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And so I said no, you're going to help train me, because and they really have, like, for instance, one of them, a young lady named Bella.

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I said to her one day in one of our work sessions Bella, when I say that Jesus said, happy are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake.

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How does that translate to you in the middle of New York City as a single woman?

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And she said that translates really easy for me.

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And I said really how.

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Because you know, I quote that and I may be seeing martyrs through the centuries that paid the sacrifice of persecution.

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What she saw was, she said Mike, it's easy when I read that to translate that into every single mom who was doing the right thing in their marriage and their husband left and left them with two kids.

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And they're doing the right thing every day, feeling persecuted for having stayed in the marriage, doing the right thing, working three jobs, putting food on the table for the kids.

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That's suffering for righteousness.

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It's doing the right thing, but not understanding why it happened to you.

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So Jesus said happy are those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, for they shall inherit the kingdom of God.

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So there's the blessing attached to every one of these outweighs.

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For instance, he said happy are those who mourn, for they will be comforted.

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How can you be happy when you're in the middle of mourning?

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Does it mean that you're supposed to have a giddy laugh and just play like you didn't lose what you lost?

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That made you sad?

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No, what you're going to understand is the comfort that you receive is so much greater than the pain of what caused you to mourn that you're actually going to be happy.

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And I mentioned earlier, john, how this book has changed me.

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I recognized it even.

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Two days ago I got a call about one of our family members by marriage really got smitten out of the blue by a cancer report that he just went for a checkup and wasn't suspecting anything and then finds out he's got cancer everywhere and it's really a tough thing and it's a tough kind of call that you have to take and help him figure out.

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How am I going to tell my kids that the doctors are saying 18 to 24 months to live?

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Those are tough things we go through.

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But here's what happened to me, john, after doing the work to write this book and what it taught me.

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I, even in receiving that tough report, I was able to encourage him and the pain of that bad diagnosis didn't take me to the dark depths that it used to, because I'm a real empathetic person and your sad story would make me as sad about yours and mine as I am about mine as I am over yours.

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Does that make sense?

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About mine as I am over yours, does that make sense?

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I was so empathetic that I became upset and sad.

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And well, I can't help anybody if I'm in the hole with them.

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I've got to be up above where I can lift them up, and I really experienced that.

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I said, kathy, this is a really tough report that we got on this call, but it didn't take me where it used to.

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And then one of the biggest ones, john, if we've got time for one more, right quick, absolutely.

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This is a personal testimony.

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I always thought of meek and weak as sort of synonymous terms, so I didn't like using that Jesus was meek because it seemed like that's weak.

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But what I learned and this has been one of the most beautiful studies and we actually met a guy who filled in the blanks for us but I had learned that in biblical times the use of the word meek was a word that was used by the Romans, who were occupiers in Jesus' day of Israel, to speak of the attitude they looked for in their forces of war.

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The Romans were the first army in Europe that brought horses into warfare.

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They got them in Spain.

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They were bred for their strength and their courage, but they had to be trained and pass these tests that when we get in the noise and the din of battle, with slashing and crashing and booming and clinging and screaming and dying, will this horse that I'm riding keep its cool or is it going to go crazy because of the circumstances?

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And that's what they called meekness.

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The meeker a horse was, the more pressure he could take and not react to it in a negative way.

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Strength under control that was the definition of meekness.

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Now I can apply it to Jesus, because that's what I see he can be nailed and spit on and ribbon his back with a whip, but he's staying under control.

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Father, forgive them.

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They don't know what they're doing, and that so spoke to me.

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It's changed my life, john.

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I find myself in circumstances where I say you know, either mentally, psychologically, financially or physically, I could squash them like a bug right now for what they are doing or saying, but I choose not to.

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I am meek, I have the strength to control myself.

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I don't have to react, and what I see, especially on social media, john, is everyone is overreacting to almost everything, and so we've reached a place where we've created pain and division and young people are actually going out and committing suicide because of what somebody said that triggered them on a post online.

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So, meekness and Jesus said if you want to be really happy, be meek, and I'll make sure that I love.

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The finish of that, the reward, always goes with his promise of happiness.

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And then this one is you will inherit the earth.

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So what we did in the book is we put inherit and merit beside each other, because people who are willing to do almost anything to prosper are people that think they have to merit everything.

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And Jesus actually said if you'll listen to me, you will inherit what you're seeking, instead of feeling like you need to merit what you're seeking.

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I love that, mike.

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I so appreciate you sharing that, and I appreciate that, from the personal standpoint again, you think about that.

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That's so that, and that's why I think you know your book coming out.

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Perfect timing, then, with regards to hope, when that book comes out and tying that in and where our hope is Wow.

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I only got a couple more questions, mike, and so I hope you have a few more minutes because I really want to get to these Prior to hitting the record button.

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You've talked about in your ministry, obviously, that you are there to secure not for you but for leaders more kingdom impact as well, and it's a word that I've been, or two words that I've been studying myself a good bit lately, and I'll use this.

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You've started a movement.

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I'm going to call it a movement.

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You know those who have changed the world called Leaders in Fellowship.

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Tell me a little bit about that and what you're doing to help other leaders, including business leaders, on their journey.

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Well, and I appreciate that, because my life, john, I have been to brag on God a minute.

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I have been really blessed with the success of what I was working toward and sought.

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My dad was a pastor, so I wanted to be a pastor.

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I got the education to be a pastor, but then Kathy and I moved to Dallas in 1976 and founded a church from nothing but our two-year-old daughter and our 20-gallon tank with some goldfish in it and not a lot else.

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And we are blessed and we've built a great ministry.

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I've pastored it 40 years, I turned it over to the younger generation and now I'm only writing and speaking on these things.

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So, leaders in fellowship is a three-part vision to sharpen your leadership skills, to increase your strategic network of relationships, because, like we say in Texas, if you see a turtle on top of a fence post, he didn't get there by himself, so all of us have to have help.

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And then, thirdly, that we move the kingdom forward.

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That's what it's about.

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Love that.

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I look forward to watching you on that journey with that yeah, I really do so.

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It's, it's, it's, it's really, uh.

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It fills me with joy.

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I am thankful for it, and I and I love telling leaders it's not about, uh, working to merit or deserve it, but a lot of them, uh, john, do not have that word over their life.

00:41:49.501 --> 00:41:57.974
And that's something I want to do is like, look, if you could just hear something from an old guy that's been around and done it a while, here's what you need.

00:41:58.909 --> 00:41:59.351
Jesus.

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When he was baptized, he was 30 years old.

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He hadn't worked one miracle.

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No one in town hardly knew him.

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He was faithful to work with Joseph as a carpenter, but it was time for him to enter his ministry.

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When he was baptized, the heavens opened and the father spoke over him and said this is my much loved son and I'm fully pleased with him.

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And you know, jesus went straight forward from that into the 40-day temptation and then into three years of exemplary ministry and then gave his life.

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He went in the strength of that word.

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And I'm finding lots of young men and women, john, who have never had that fatherly mentoring, to say you're loved, you're good enough.

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God called you.

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And what I want with this book, john, is that I'm going to be honest with you.

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Before I wrote it and did the work to write it, did the research, I wouldn't have put God and happy in the same sentence.

00:43:08.264 --> 00:43:17.969
I would have put God and holy or like serious stuff, but not happy.

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Now I understand, like any good father would.

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He wants to look at his children around his feet and laugh with them because he sees them operating full of joy and laugh with them because he sees them operating full of joy.

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I think the church around the world has done a pretty good job with repentance and salvation and the basic tenets of faith.

00:43:37.211 --> 00:43:41.282
I don't think we've done a good enough job exemplifying happiness.

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I think we ought to stream out of churches or close our Bibles, whatever we're doing spiritual and I think we ought to go out into the world and be absolute examples of what it means to be filled with happiness and joy.

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So now I believe it isn't trivial to God.

00:43:59.599 --> 00:44:00.976
I think he does want us happy.

00:44:03.152 --> 00:44:04.155
I believe he does as well.

00:44:04.155 --> 00:44:08.112
Mike, how do folks get in touch with you and where do you want them to find the book as well?

00:44:09.755 --> 00:44:13.041
Well, Amazon is a good place for the book, and I've got other things as well.

00:44:13.041 --> 00:44:26.768
In fact, I enjoy Audible books, so I recorded this book myself in my own voice and it's available on Audible books and then the book can be gotten on Amazon or anywhere, or they can go to.

00:44:26.768 --> 00:44:31.494
This is really important, john, because this is something that people can go.

00:44:31.494 --> 00:44:33.298
We're building an army.

00:44:33.298 --> 00:44:43.925
Literally, we are building an army, and we call it the happy army, and you can go to I'm real happycom and join the happy army.

00:44:43.925 --> 00:44:49.643
It doesn't cost a thing and when you give me your email, we're going to stay in touch.

00:44:49.643 --> 00:44:51.612
We're going to have.

00:44:51.612 --> 00:45:05.697
Our goal is, by the end of 2025, to have 100,000 people signed up in a happy army, and we're going to start to demonstrate the joy that we found and the reality that the word and Jesus and this book.

00:45:06.498 --> 00:45:20.327
You know, john, when I was writing this, I got advice from Madison Avenue in New York City, because my heart really was for this book not to be just for Christians who go to church, and I wanted to jump the fence.

00:45:20.327 --> 00:45:22.831
I wanted to really help people that need help.

00:45:22.831 --> 00:45:27.440
I got a really rewarding experience last week, john.

00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:30.164
I don't even know how I ended up on this guy's podcast.

00:45:30.164 --> 00:45:45.094
I did a podcast for a man who has thousands of insurance agencies across the nation and I was speaking to them and in the first five minutes he told me Pastor, I want to talk to you, what's your book about?

00:45:45.094 --> 00:45:55.239
But I want to tell you up front, both of my parents were atheists, I'm an atheist, I married an atheist, and so let's go well.

00:45:56.041 --> 00:46:06.059
I just talked about these principles, like I've talked to you today, john, and one hour later I had to say I'm sure we both got stuff to do.

00:46:06.059 --> 00:46:07.561
We've got to get finished here, right?

00:46:07.561 --> 00:46:10.126
And he said, yeah, but I don't want to, mike.

00:46:10.126 --> 00:46:18.940
He said I could talk to you for hours and I will tell you this is his words, not mine.

00:46:18.940 --> 00:46:25.478
He said this is the best podcast I've ever done and I want to have you back on to talk about this.

00:46:26.211 --> 00:46:37.956
See, I wrestle with whether or not to put Jesus in the subtitle on this, but I decided to do that for a reason because, john, I don't think most people's problem is with Jesus.

00:46:37.956 --> 00:46:47.818
I think most people's problem is with what messed up religions have done to them and the concepts that they've heard or seen that don't represent.

00:46:47.818 --> 00:47:06.643
So this is all about the wisest man that ever lived, his teaching, and people are receiving it and taking it, and we're hearing so many good reports that I'm so thankful for, and so I hope people join us.

00:47:06.643 --> 00:47:13.880
I hope they join the happy army so I can just contact them about once every week or two and give them something to be really happy about.

00:47:15.210 --> 00:47:15.753
Well, I'll put the.

00:47:15.753 --> 00:47:17.318
I'll put the link in the show notes.

00:47:17.318 --> 00:47:18.260
Let's get folks out there.

00:47:18.260 --> 00:47:21.177
I'm real happycom and join the army.

00:47:21.177 --> 00:47:22.844
I think it's a great cause.

00:47:22.844 --> 00:47:25.530
Mike, you've been very gracious with your time.

00:47:25.530 --> 00:47:31.603
I know I've well overtaken what I committed to you, and I appreciate your time.

00:47:31.603 --> 00:47:37.313
As he said, I could continue to talk to you, and I hope we get the chance to do it again as a first-time guest.

00:47:37.313 --> 00:47:38.838
I'll finish you, though, with the same question.

00:47:38.838 --> 00:47:42.880
I'll give you the last word for folks, and I'm going to give you a billboard.

00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:44.135
They're right there in Dallas, texas.

00:47:44.135 --> 00:47:52.534
You can put it anywhere you want to.

00:47:52.554 --> 00:47:53.317
So millions will see it.

00:47:53.317 --> 00:47:56.449
What's the message you're going to put on that billboard and why do you put that message there?

00:47:56.449 --> 00:48:10.532
I'm going to put I'm real happy and right below it I'm going to put I wish I had known all this earlier, because I lived for years not fully understanding the subject that I should have really delved into, but for some reason I was deceived.

00:48:10.532 --> 00:48:33.346
I thought it was trivial, I thought you know I'll close with this quickly, john when I came out with the book, a reviewer one of the first reviews that hit social media this guy just blasted me and the first paragraph he said that if I was a Bible teacher, I was misquoted and I was a false prophet and I was a heretic.

00:48:33.346 --> 00:48:37.697
And here was his statement God wants us to be holy.

00:48:37.697 --> 00:48:40.056
He doesn't care if we're happy.

00:48:40.056 --> 00:48:46.202
So my publicist called me and she said what do you want me to do?

00:48:46.202 --> 00:48:48.757
How should we respond to this review?

00:48:48.757 --> 00:48:51.492
And I said do the same thing I just did.

00:48:51.492 --> 00:48:54.579
I gave it a thumbs up and good comments.

00:48:54.579 --> 00:48:56.043
And she's like really.

00:48:56.043 --> 00:49:03.952
And I said really, because that's exactly what I expected from someone who is still there where I used to be.

00:49:03.952 --> 00:49:06.922
I used to think God was more important.

00:49:06.922 --> 00:49:13.056
It was more important for me to be holy, which was performance-based, than to be happy.

00:49:13.898 --> 00:49:17.592
And what I would say to that young man and everybody who has that same issue?

00:49:17.592 --> 00:49:28.114
Jesus said this the kingdom of heaven is righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

00:49:28.114 --> 00:49:30.518
It couldn't be plainer than that.

00:49:30.518 --> 00:49:33.963
And joy made the list of his top three.

00:49:33.963 --> 00:49:36.226
But the first one is righteousness.

00:49:36.226 --> 00:49:44.675
And here's what I would say, john Not until I got the righteousness component clear did I have peace and joy.

00:49:45.356 --> 00:50:04.990
So the second and third component is contingent on the first, and if you think that your sense of righteousness is based on you being perfect enough to earn it, then good luck.

00:50:04.990 --> 00:50:19.675
But the reality is, the reason I'm so happy is because God made me righteous through the offering of his only son, and now my righteousness is not my own, but it's his, and that makes me really happy, because I spent many years trying to be good enough to please a reluctant and angry God.

00:50:19.675 --> 00:50:24.664
I wish I'd have known sooner that he was filled with joy over me.

00:50:24.664 --> 00:50:31.373
He created me, he loves me and he made me righteous, and I'm going to live every day of my life happy about that.

00:50:32.054 --> 00:50:33.818
So good, so good.

00:50:33.818 --> 00:50:38.275
Dr Mike Hayes, thank you so much for bringing it on the Uncommon Leader Podcast.

00:50:38.275 --> 00:50:40.501
I wish you the best in this book and more to come as well.

00:50:41.730 --> 00:50:42.673
And you as well, John.

00:50:42.673 --> 00:50:43.637
Thank you so much.

00:50:46.630 --> 00:50:49.380
And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon Leader Podcast.

00:50:49.380 --> 00:50:50.554
Thanks for tuning in today.

00:50:50.554 --> 00:50:58.039
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00:50:58.039 --> 00:51:04.657
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00:51:04.657 --> 00:51:12.536
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00:51:12.536 --> 00:51:15.623
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