Transforming Organizations Through Storytelling: Lessons from Marketing Expert Mary Czarnecki

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hey, uncommon Leaders, welcome back. This is the Uncommon Leader podcast and I'm your host, john Gallagher. In today's episode, I interview Mary Zarnicki. Mary's an experienced marketing strategist, speaker and a consultant with a diverse background in brand management and business development. She's got over 20 years of experience working with Fortune 100 companies and she brings a wealth of knowledge and expertise in driving profit growth and improving customer experience. She specializes in brand positioning, audience insight, development, social media and digital marketing. Hey, but look, mary's journey isn't just about her corporate accomplishments. She's now a multi-passionate entrepreneur and has a podcast called Sticky Note Marketing. In this episode, mary examines the power of storytelling and highlights the importance of understanding both external and internal audiences. She also shares her experiences in helping leaders and individuals sell their ideas within the organizations and the role of personal branding and adding value to businesses. So, without any further ado, let's get started. Mary Zarnicki, welcome to the Uncommon Leader Podcast. It's great to have you on the show. How are you today?

Speaker 2: 1:10

Good Thanks, John, for having me excited to be here.

Speaker 1: 1:13

I'm looking forward to the conversation as well. Anytime I can get a fellow BBG'er on the call and talk with them. I know the conversation is going to be fruitful, I know it's going to be fun and I know the listeners are going to find value in that. But I'll start you off. You're first-time guest. You get to answer the typical first-time guest questions, that's to tell me a story from your childhood that still impacts who you are as a leader or as a person today.

Speaker 2: 1:37

Yeah, definitely. Well, so I think the one that came to mind when I heard that question was going to be coming my way was the day I lost my first tooth. So my parents are amazing. I was a lucky kid. I had a good childhood, I had two loving parents, but I was also the oldest of two girls. So, like any oldest child, sometimes they learn things in raising you that then they don't make the same mistakes with your siblings. So the one thing that my parents had forgotten to tell me was that your teeth fall out. As little kids, we lose our teeth. So I lost my tooth at summer camp at the YMCA one day, and I was terrified that I had done something wrong Because my parents were brushing we're flossing, you have to brush your teeth. I was terrified, I had done something wrong and I put it back in. So all day at camp I remember I looked like over my teeth and I'm trying to keep it in. And then I go home and my mom was so sweet she had made my favorite was chocolate pudding. I love chocolate pudding. So she made me chocolate pudding and I was eating out of the wrong side of my mouth and she was like, okay, well, maybe marriage is just being weird, whatever, but it kept going. And then I wouldn't really eat my dinner and I wasn't, because I was trying to keep this tooth in and so finally I just broke down because she was like Mary, what's wrong? And I still remember holding you know, they had this I still remember the pillow I was holding on the couch and I just broke down, I lost it. I was sobbing and I did something wrong. I lost my tooth, fell out, and she started laughing and of course that only made me cry harder. But she's like okay, okay, no, this is normal. Your teeth are supposed to fall out. And I was like shocked and at first I was furious. I was like why didn't you tell me this? But as we started talking about it, you know, she explained what was happening and how this is normal and it's going to happen again and you probably already got loose teeth. And then she told me about the tooth fairy, which is the big win, right for a little kid, but I guess for me, the big lesson from that now, how that impacts me as a person, is realizing that I might know something that I assume everyone knows and they don't. They might believe something entirely different, they might have some other preconception. And there are a lot of people walking around there thinking that they're doing something wrong, when really it's just normal to have these questions. It's just normal to think something because we've been told something or we assume something, or we just never asked because we thought that wasn't OK, that it wasn't safe to ask. So I think that's the story that really sticks with me.

Speaker 1: 4:32

I love that. I mean, I'm smiling, I don't. We don't do a video podcast. I'm smiling, I'm trying not to belly laugh and and make sounds on the microphone through the microphone, but, like there's so many things I want to ask has nothing to do with the conversation we're gonna have. Like, did you play that trick then on your little sister as well? I'm like, no, we're not going to tell her either, because we're gonna let. We're gonna let her feel bad about it as well, and I just I mean all those things that go on as being the big sister and like, if you're going to put me through that pain. But I find that story both, I will say, humorous, but also the feeling behind it in terms of the lesson of yeah, you may know it, but nobody else has any idea what you're talking about as well. So it's important that you communicate. And I'm sure in your line of work, that becomes very important. So we have you on. You're kind of known for sticky note marketing. When I do my consulting work there are a lot of folks that get tired of using sticky notes with me and they swear I have stock in 3M. That they do because I make them use the 3M stickies as well because they're better than all the other kind of stickies. But and I don't have stock in 3M. But tell me about sticky note marketing, mary. Tell me what it is that that. Tell the listeners what it is that you do and why marketing is so important in today's entrepreneurship world and business world.

Speaker 2: 5:49

Well, definitely so. The idea behind sticky note marketing and why I call my podcast that and a lot of the series and content that I produce is that people tend to over complicate marketing, marketing strategy, marketing theory it can be overly complex, complicated. People are sharing these very detailed frameworks and you know there are textbooks and people, you know. I just think it's better to start simple, and for me that starts with if you can fit in on a sticky note, you can break it down to the most simplest elements, right? Someone can understand that when we inundate people with too much information or oh, you should do this and oh, we're going to follow this framework, or oh, first we're going to it it just paralyzes people. And so as a consultant, as a speaker, as a workshop trainer, my focus is to make sure that I'm taking all my knowledge. It's my job to learn the things but then bring it to them in a way that not only they can understand quickly and easily, but in a way that then they can apply. Because I think so many people who are in the marketing sphere, we're all a little bit geeky, and so we love our theory and we love our frameworks and our jargon terms, but at the end of the day. That, in my opinion, kind of wastes a lot of time, and so the sticky note marketing is my measuring stick to say, Okay, could I capture this on a sticky note? And if not, what am I over complicating? What do I need to refine? That's fine.

Speaker 1: 7:21

So keep it as simple as being able to put it on one sticky note, absolutely in terms of one thought per sticky note, but certainly a thought that's simple enough that you can work there. I appreciate that. Look, as a former leader of business, in terms of an executive position, I was on the other side of the geekiness and that was the engineer side in production. So we didn't really think marketing people were geeks. We just thought they spent money and never got any return for it. We just never really understood. I'm sure you've heard that before and in consulting we might talk about how you prove ROI and things like that here in a minute. But the the importance of marketing is not just like, okay, go write this strategic plan and come in and plan these events and things like that to go along with it. There's something behind that sticky note in the story that you have to tell within marketing. So when you go in and talk with a leader, when you go in and talk with an organization who's interested in quote improving what's going on in their marketing department, you know what is it. They should be asking you, when you go in as a subject matter expert to say how am I, how do. I know I'm doing better.

Speaker 2: 8:24

Well, I mean, I think for me, the trap, you know, especially leaders who are inundated with all these decisions that they have to make every day is it's the trap of falling into the tactics first instead of strategy first, and so really thinking not so much asking me the questions of oh, should I be using TikTok, or should we be doing influencer marketing, or should we, you know, be changing our messaging strategy or targeting a new audience? Those are all really good questions, but they're not the driving question, and so I think the core question that we should be asking is well, what is this going to do for us, based on where do we want to go? And so that's really where I focused a lot. When I'm especially working with either marketing leaders or overall leaders within an organization, is they're charged with the mission of the organization, driving toward big goals and trying to think about okay, what are the best opportunities. So one of the things I like to help people understand first, before we get into any of the tactics or you know the strategy planning, you know execution plans is just what is the best opportunity for you now in terms of your marketing? What can your marketing do for you now? There might be great ideas. There might be things that you want to pursue, but based on specifically what your goals are, they may be good ideas, but they might sacrifice the great idea. So we really want to make sure that we're pursuing the best opportunity first and not getting distracted by all the projects that might be, you know, pet projects of different individuals within the organization.

Speaker 1: 10:08

Hey listeners, I want to take a quick moment to share something special with you. Many of the topics and discussions we have on this podcast are areas where I provide coaching and consulting services for individuals and organizations. If you've been inspired by our conversation and are seeking a catalyst for change in your own life or within your team, I invite you to visit coachjohngallaghercom. Forward slash free call to sign up for a free coaching call with me. It's an opportunity for us to connect, discuss your unique challenges and explore how coaching or consulting can benefit you and your team. Okay, let's get back to the show. So how do you assess how they're doing? How do you take them through that?

Speaker 2: 10:51

I think for me, the exciting and fun part for me not always so fun for the people inside the organization, but is looking at what's worked. So often. It shocks me consistently that even smart leaders will be so excited that they want to move on to something new, that they leave behind things that have been working. They move away from things that have been working, especially in the marketing realm, when we're thinking about okay, well, we ran a campaign that really worked, but we didn't measure it or we didn't go back and look at what made it work or what didn't make it work. Where could it have been better? So, instead of running the same campaign with optimizations based on those learnings, we're doing new campaigns, we're doing new messaging, we're doing new channels and new types of content, and so you end up trying to recreate the wheel every time and never really making improvements. We're just creating something new every time. So I like looking at well, are we actually capitalizing on those learnings? What's worked best for you in the past? Is there room to actually double down on that with improvements, or have we exhausted those opportunities? And now it really is time to look at innovation or something.

Speaker 1: 12:07

It's funny if you could narrow it down in just a one-sticking note okay, this is not your last question, by the way, in terms of the billboard question at the end, for a first-time guess In terms of one-sticking note, and you had to explain to leaders and organization what is the value of marketing and what are they going to get out of it. What would be on that one-sticking note?

Speaker 2: 12:37

I would probably say when done well. Marketing should make the path to yes seamless.

Speaker 1: 12:47

Make the path to, yes, seamless, absolutely. I mean, I see that I've had to learn that on the entrepreneurial side, obviously more than I've had to deal with it before, in terms of obviously having to be my own marketing person, be my own brand person, and it would be fun if there was just like a plug and play type activity where just look at all the stuff that made that happen, but making it seamless, I think about it much like any other process. It's probably simple, but it's not easy. There's a certain level of work that comes along with it. When you think about some of the clients that you've worked with and you've had, you've been in kind of in the entrepreneurial, entrepreneurial world here for several years now, having left a large company before. But what are, in your entrepreneurial side, where you've worked folks, what's a what's a success story that you like to talk about, that you're proud of and the work that you've done. You don't have to reveal the company or anything like that, but what are you proud of?

Speaker 2: 13:37

Yeah, so I'd say one that jumps to mind that's more recent and, like you, like you said, I work with very large global market leading brands, and then I work with more kind of small to medium sized businesses, and it's it's funny. This this one that I have in mind is in the financial services space, and for them it was a inflection point in their growth. They had gotten to a great level of success. They had a core product with a core audience that loved them. They got a ton of new business through referrals, but what they were realizing was that they were actually being asked for other products by their market, and because they weren't offering that to the market, they were losing out. So they were going elsewhere for those types of support, and so I came in to really help them think about how do we put this portfolio together in a way that makes sense with the story of your brand, with the needs of your market? How are we talking about them differently? So there's, we're not creating confusion. We're not just creating new offers to create new offers. Now, they all make sense together as part of the same story, and so for me, that was, that was part of what I love doing is helping people understand that we're not creating something for creating something sake. We're actually going to make sure that our audience understands that we're doing this in service to them and in helping them meet their needs, move through that transformation of what they're trying to achieve in their own lives and their own businesses, and so we really I really liked how they took the time to think about that before just jumping in and launching something. So for me, I was really proud of the work we did that. There is some internal strategy work that happened, but then, because of that, the strength of bringing it to market made that success ramp go much more quickly.

Speaker 1: 15:33

I love that and you think about that again as you, as I've heard a couple of times in your message here. It's telling the story and how. Let's just let's just talk about this again. For you as a keynote speaker as well as a trainer, you've got to market yourself. Also for those leaders who are having to market themselves as influencers, you know you've got to be powerful at telling a story. What are the components and how do you tell a good story? How do people do it, even telling themselves or selling their product?

Speaker 2: 16:04

Well, it's interesting Because I think, once you understand the fundamental pieces, the formula, elements of telling a great story, what I love to help people see is the power of using that both with their external audiences, but then also with their internal right. If you're a leader or even an individual contributor within an organization, you have to sell in your ideas internally before it ever gets to market.

Speaker 1: 16:26

Yes, exactly.

Speaker 2: 16:27

And, like you said, you also have to tell your own personal brand story. If you're an executive in an organizational leader in an organization, you having a personal brand has been shown, proven to add value to your organization. So it's that internal story you have to tell. You have to turn the internal within your organization story and the external and, to be honest, yes, there is a whole bunch of complicated frameworks, but I would narrow it down to what I would have been on a sticky note, which is basically thinking about you are no longer the hero in this story, the story that you're trying to tell. You are the guide. You are bringing people through a transformation. Your audience is now the hero because they're in the before. No one wants to be the before picture, so your audience is in the before. They're the hero of the story that needs to get to the after picture. So when I'm thinking about these stories we're telling that's what I'm trying to get them to understand is what makes you the guide. How can you empathize with this hero, understand their current situation? But how can then you shine the light on why you are the credible reason to say yes, like what about? You is going to bring the authority, the credibility, the reason why they should say yes to you. But even taking you out of the story, we have this hero here. You have your audience, whether it's an internal audience that you're trying to sell on an idea so you get budget approval, or an external audience that you're trying to say yes to your product or service. It's getting into the idea of I need to understand their current situation, their current reality, and not just what the data is telling me, but really what's going on below the surface from them, what we call the insight, but it's just that hero understanding of what is the hero's current existence and where do they want to go. And once we know those three things, who are you as the guide, who are they in their current state and who are they in their future desired state? That's really the foundation of any great story, because now you're able to position what you want them to do as the solution, as the vehicle.

Speaker 1: 18:40

As the vehicle to close that gap. Yeah, close the gap when they are.

Speaker 2: 18:44

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 18:45

I love that. I mean, you're the guide, the audience is the hero. I got to believe in the marketing world there are those who are in a position that don't think that way, get their egos in the way, and they do think they're the hero absolutely in terms of making that again in the leadership world, understanding that they feel like they are the hero to folks. To get that time, when you were talking about that and you're telling the story and the hero and the guide, it's just remind, like I love to use movies to tell stories. Is there a movie that you love story-wise that really outlines that? That you're like see, I told you there it is he's the guide and he's the hero. Is there a movie that comes to mind?

Speaker 2: 19:24

Well, it's funny. I know a lot of people in the past have used Star Wars and kind of talk about Star Wars in terms of the great story. I actually really love the idea of Ratatouille. If you've ever seen that Disney movie about the rat, he's the hero. He's trying to move into this recognition of who he is. It might be the same Luke Skywalker, rat, yoda, the chef. The idea here is that you're moving through that transformation. They're going through this. It's almost like the guide, you the brand or you the leader are voluntarily kind of stepping into that background role because they're able to go through this transformation and shine. So I use in my workshops a lot of times I'll use Star Wars because most people know them. For the right audience I like to use Ratatouille, okay.

Speaker 1: 20:21

All right, I love that. I mean again the story that comes to my mind. As you told, that was Karate Kid as well. It's from Yagi and well, his name rather Ralph Macho, that wasn't his name in the movie but, yeah, moved him from the where he was to the hero at the end of the movie, absolutely. So I think, again, any good movie that's going to be really popular has got the guy, got the hero, and you need to have the villain in there as well. That really makes it work. But that's trying to keep the hero from moving from where they are to where they want to be, which is really nice for sure.

Speaker 2: 20:52

I mean I'm sure you have leaders in your community that you know when they really think about it and they say, okay. Well, if I looked at my messaging and how we're sharing what we can do and what we offer, asking that question of, well, how much of it is focused on the functions, the features, the thing I sell versus the value I'm providing, and I think that's the biggest transformation that can come by actually thinking of it in the context of this story is no longer we're not selling. You know the features of what we are providing. We're actually increasing the overall value through this story.

Speaker 1: 21:30

Mary, I want to switch just a little bit of gear to learn more about you and your journey, if you will. Through your career, that's probably again I don't stop short of saying similar to mine, but you've worked for big companies, you've probably worked for small companies and now primarily entrepreneurial. And what you're doing, what has that journey been like for you? The move from you know, a top 10 organization, ultimately in terms of providing consulting services, like you did, to an entrepreneur. What do you like and what do you not like about where you are now?

Speaker 2: 22:06

It's interesting because I know there are some people that have gone into entrepreneurship and very much rail against their experiences in corporate and the JOB. For me, I actually really value those experiences. I'm grateful for those experiences. For me, it was a great training ground, and it gave me a lot of good perspective to also recognize the drawbacks to running my own practice. So one of the things that I most miss about being within an organization from my corporate jobs, was the community and the ability to be around people who could help me brainstorm and think differently and bring new ideas. As an entrepreneur, what I've found, at least in my experience, is that I have to create those networks, those communities, for myself right, so joining master Moans or attending conferences it's now a much more proactive thing I have to do in order to bring that into my world and into my life, so that is something that I think is a huge benefit to being part of a corporation, being part of an organization. The drawback, I think, to it, though, is that we can get stuck. We can sometimes get so myopic because we are just in our worlds, within our organization, and I spent 10 years at WebMDA, which was a long time to be within an organization and you start to lose a little perspective on, well, how are other organizations doing this or how do other organizations run. And so I think that is one drawback that, as an entrepreneur, I actually really love the fact that I'm able to see how things are running in different organizations and pull some of those learnings to be able to serve my clients in the most effective ways so I can help them understand well what is working now. But where might people be getting stuck that I can help them overcome that? Obviously, the downside to entrepreneurship I think in my experience has been a little bit of that lack of access to just that new thinking. That again, we can get a little bit stuck if we don't go out and create those networks, join those masterminds, attend those conferences. That's been my experience.

Speaker 1: 24:30

So that's really something because it's something I've missed a lot as well as I've moved into it the past few years is that community side, that brainstorming within a group to lift an idea up. And it is why it's very important, as you said, to be so intentional about going to find that, whether it's a mastermind, it's an accountability group, it's a group like Brand Builders Group, a Facebook group online that you go into, or a community or forum that you're throwing ideas out there, but it's still not quite the same. It's a bit of a challenge, but there are, as you say, the good sides to entrepreneurship as well as you go forward in the ability to be creative, the ability to frankly consider many different alternatives that you couldn't necessarily couldn't I couldn't necessarily do in a big company in terms of how we could approach business and things like that. So I appreciate you sharing that. Has there been anyone in particular as an entrepreneur, that's had a big influence on you, whether it's somebody that you've read or someone that's been a mentor for you and who you've been able to find and seek out?

Speaker 2: 25:33

Oh gosh, so many All the books behind me. I definitely, I definitely. For me, there are some people that no one knows their name, that I've, I've really been influenced by. There's a woman who's a sales coach named Renee Rebar, and in working with her, one of the things that I needed in my transition from being a corporate marketer to an entrepreneurial you know, business owner was I always had a sales partner and so actually selling myself to be able to represent myself was a big transition. So leaning on sales coaches like that has been an essential thing for me in building my my own business. I think. In terms of books I've read, some of the most influential recently have been Storybrand by Donald Miller really reinforced a lot of the things that I had been seeing but actually then gave words and language to it.

Speaker 1: 26:33

I'm a big fan of Donald Miller, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 26:35

Yeah, and more recently I actually just read how Brands Grow by Professor Byron Sharp and he is not liked by everyone because he very much is a information data driven researcher and he really butts up against some commonly held beliefs around marketing and how brands do grow and increase penetration in their marketplaces. But for me I enjoyed that because I liked the idea, even if maybe at first instinct I I almost didn't want to consider it because it came up against some of my own beliefs. It was, it was refreshing to actually read something that made me think in that way like, oh, maybe what I do believe isn't exactly right.

Speaker 1: 27:28

Love that in terms of thinking about not reading to just to find someone that writes that agrees with everything you say, but but reading to get a different perspective and be able to learn from it, something that's always challenged me. I had a coach tell me that one time. John, stop reading just stuff that people agree with you 100 percent on. Go out and read some different perspectives and make that work. So really cool, fun question here what has been the best investment you've made in yourself for your business? Less than $100 in the past year.

Speaker 2: 28:01

Less than $100. This is a funny one, but for anyone who is a hot beverage drinker they'll understand it was the Ember mug. So for me, I have to do a lot of creative work, but then I also have to do a lot of phone calls and client consultations and workshops that I'm teaching, and so there can be long stretches where I don't get up and out of my office as much as I should. But it's the little things that keep my, my brain, in the right zone, and so the this is the mug that keeps itself warm. So it's it's changed the way I enjoy my beverages, which those beverages make me feel good. When I feel good, I think better. When I think better, I do better work.

Speaker 1: 28:49

Ok, all right, cool. See, it was a fun question, that's a good. Before I finish with my last couple of questions here, you know, is there, is there anything else that that I might have missed? That you kind of wish people just really knew about, about marketing in general.

Speaker 2: 29:09

I think that it's so much more than what at first blush comes to mind for people. When you say marketing, which is usually tactics, which is usually my platforms and my copy and my website and my emails All of those things really should be grounded in the strategy of how does this really contribute to our growth? Where do we want to go? How is this going to get us even just one more step closer? And those are the questions I wish people asked sooner rather than later, and definitely before asking questions about the tactics, because so often even smart, professional, smart leaders I feel like are getting pulled by the tactical execution, by the oh, I should be doing this because my competition is, or I'm being told by an expert that I should be doing this, instead of then going back to the root question of how is this literally tying back to our goals, our mission, what we're trying to achieve?

Speaker 1: 30:11

Very cool, Mary. Thank you for being a guest on the podcast. How can people stay in touch with you going forward?

Speaker 2: 30:18

Definitely Well. I try to make it as easy as possible on people. In terms of the core hub, best resource to go to is just literally my namecom, so maryzarnackycom. I do a lot of my behind the scenes sharing over on Instagram and then LinkedIn. I share a lot more of my thought leadership information I'm learning from the clients and the workshops that I'm running.

Speaker 1: 30:43

Love that and I'll put a link to that in the podcast so folks don't have to guess it. It's our Nicky. Yes, They'll figure it out the first time through, but it's something kind of like Gallagher. They're always going to miss an L or an A in there somewhere or put an I instead of an A. I don't spell it like the Irish spell it. You know that's just how they would be telling me. So all right, Mary, I'll finish you up with the most important question, and that's the billboard question, especially sticky note market. I'm just going to give you a big sticky note that you're going to put up on the side of a building somewhere. You can put whatever you want to on that sticky note for people to see what's going to be on that sticky note, that billboard, and why would you put that on there.

Speaker 2: 31:22

Well, I was torn when I heard that this is your last question, because part of it is more what I tell people who I serve now, which is, I do think, would probably make your message matter, because it's not going to matter if you don't put the effort into it. But there was a temptation. Can I have a second?

Speaker 1: 31:43

I'll let you put a little hash through the middle of the sticky note. We're going to put a hash.

Speaker 2: 31:48

The other was almost in service to the people that we all were in our past. Right, that kid that lost her tooth and thought that she had done something wrong, that you know was too afraid to ask the question. That you know. Oh I, there's something flawed in me. I did something wrong is just being able to put a billboard in front of the younger marketing leaders out there and organizational leaders saying your voice will ultimately be heard, you know, just giving them a little bit of confidence that it's okay to stand up to ask questions, to not always have the answer, but it's all about asking the right question.

Speaker 1: 32:32

Very cool. Mary's Arneke, thanks again for being a guest on the Uncommon Leader podcast. I've truly enjoyed the conversation. I wish you the best going forward. Okay, let's stay in touch.

Speaker 2: 32:41

Absolutely. Thank you, John Prouding.

Speaker 1: 32:47

And that wraps up another episode of the Uncommon Leader podcast. Thanks for tuning in today. If you found value in this episode, I encourage you to share it with your friends, colleagues or anyone else who could benefit from the insights and inspiration we've shared. Also, if you have a moment, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback not only helps us to improve, but it also helps others discover the podcast and join our growing community of Uncommon Leaders. Until next time, go with Grow Champions.